Go to war for the introverts?

[PiqueABoo]

Naturally cheerful Y8 DD has been saying she “hates” school a lot this week and for her that's new and troubling.

That is because we’ve had another parents’ evening where despite some pleasant comments, the most common critical message has been that she must participate more in the classroom in order to improve in their subject. The presentation of that message in the child's presence has ranged from sensitive to jaw-droppingly brutal.

The assertion is absurd because she is one of their very highest academic performers who is constrained by the pace of the teaching and assessment, not by her failure to be an in-class attention-seeking Hand-Up girl.

I. Am. Sick. And. Bloody. Tired. Of. It.

If it's like this for DD then $deity help the ones with less shiny academic performance because they can't obtain the same certainty about what does or doesn't affect their performance in school-stuff.

So what to do? I'm simmering, want to shove a mountain of the system's sanctimonious platitudes about inclusion/diversity down their throats until they choke on them, surrender and stop expecting every child to conform to a specific shallow stereotype. But if they have the wit to absorb the message they wouldn’t need one in the first place, so that would probably be futile.

My "war" means fighting the premise that some extrovert stereotype is the pinnacle of human perfection and all children can be like that if only they would stop being lazy and made an effort.

I could swap "extrovert" and swap it for "introvert" and be talking about my DS, who like an earlier poster's DS is very bright verbally but not so good at getting anything down on paper which is where it needs to be for exam purposes.

Swings and roundabouts.

"I'd really be careful to assume that if it's not broke now it never will be ... but as subjects become harder her wish not to call too much attention to herself is starting to cause her real issues"

Point taken. DD has always been a very determined child who much prefers to do things all by herself, so yes a mix of pride and introvert reluctance possibly could cause some issues down the line.

"perhaps ask her to put herself in the position of the teacher so she can better understand why it is a problem for teaching and for classroom dynamics"

We've been doing charitable versions of the teacher's position about lots of things for a long, long time. I can't make that teaching dynamic one stick because she produces too many compelling reasons to make it fall off.

Learning to be communicative, confident, and to contribute appropriately, etc is a vital aspect of education.

It doesn't sound like your DD is making much progress in this area. It also sounds like her development may be significantly retarded.

It would be more constructive for your daughter's eventual educational and employment outcomes if you were to support the school in their work to advance her in this

What work at school is that then?

There isn't any.

I know what an absence of relevant work looks like because once upon a time back in primary there was an old maverick teacher who actually did some. They were great. Excellent in fact. For every type of child.

When I'm feeling charitable I assume these secondary teachers have standing orders to write about something that Must Be Improved to tick boxes for those pesky SLT who live in fear of Ofsted.

When I'm in a darker mood I sometimes think that DD's self-control in the classroom simply serves to highlight their inability to control the rest and they wish she weren't there. Or at least messed around enough so the contrast wasn't so noticeable.

The ones I feel sorry for are the few teachers who sometimes give her school rewards for not misbehaving. Or write pleasant appreciative notes slipped in with the termly review levels bollox. She's 'angelic' we're told and so on. They seem too pleasant in a way and it's difficult not to get the impression that her relatively immaculate behaviour is one of the few things that is helping to prevent these ones having a breakdown.

As for the rest you're Telling Penguins to Flap Harder and assuming everyone networks and tweets for a living, but I get the impression you didn't read that bit. It's up there somewhere.

excuse me, I don't know what you mean by there isn't any work at school that's that?

It comes under literacy, and all subjects should monitor and develop it, as with numeracy.

I know what an absence of relevant work looks like because once upon a time back in primary there was an old maverick teacher who actually did some. They were great. Excellent in fact. For every type of child.

have no idea what you are saying here?

why you are so negative and unsupportive about your child's education, but it has absolutly nothing to do with networking and tweeting.

it is to do with speaking and listening, presenting, expressing, articulating, projection, clarity, contributing, discussing, responding, eye contact, appropriate tone of voice and facial expression, turn taking, leading,

and similar skills, and areas for development.

Staff will be asked about these areas in references for university, jobs and apprenticeships, it is very important for your child to be aware of her strengths and to work on her weaknesses in this.

And yes, SMT ( and ofsted) will expect to see monitoring and targets in this, as in all other areas of education, but this is a core subject.

their inability to control the rest and they wish she weren't there.

What an odd thing to say? Why should they wish she wasn't there? She is obviously behind in one aspect of her education, and struggling, but she sounds like she is doing well in other areas. Plus, why would teachers not want the weaker students there too??

sorry, you have completely lost me, in the rest of your post.

Introverts are no more incabable than extroverts who hog discussions, call out or don't listen. Yet those extroverts are often called 'bubbly, confident, willing, lively'...while introverts are called shy, not contributing, too quiet, stuck in their shell, not participating.
We are giving the extroverts more confidence with our watered down labels while further making introverts feel there is something wrong with them. Yes you need to be able to participate but teachers can go the wrong way about it and actually need to manage their class so there is no option.
DDs school do 'no hands up' and the teacher constantly uses lolly sticks or just picks children to answer. It is completely the norm and all children have to be thinking all the time, it is OK to get it wrong but not OK not to try. DD is introvert and it has worked a treat for her as it removes the angst of putting her hand up.
I was chatting to my sister about this, DN was very introvert at school and always got this comment. They all got so sick of it, and like OP wanted to shout 'that is my DD, she is a brilliant listener, logical worker, over-achiever, dedicated and perfectly able to get her way through life!' by the time DN was in year 11. DN went on to a top uni, is now a teacher herself and more than able to stand up in front of large groups and be animated. School is a weird environment, you have been with the same group for years and there are set moulds/expectations. Introverts are just as capable to present and contribute, just not in classroom environments where it is all set up for extroverts.

I am an introvert - I take solace in the fact that the majority of the world's greatest ideas/art/literature happened because one person was sitting alone in their room thinking.

Modern life seriously undervalues the importance of lone thinking - it goes for stimulus/response all the time.

Being able to speak in public isn't essential - there are many jobs where you don't have to do this. Being treated as though there is something wrong with you when you are simply disinclined to yak endlessly in a group of people is a problem though - it's treated like a disability when it is simply a point of difference. Americans treat shyness like it's a mental illness and I hope we are not going the same way.

Sometimes people grow into their public persona, not everyone is confident at age 11 - but making someone self conscious is a real issue and I would challenge the teachers.

"It comes under literacy, and all subjects should monitor and develop it, as with numeracy."

Mmm.. I assume you're English dept? "Should" does not imply "do", or at least it doesn't in this corner of the country.

"What an odd thing to say?"

Not when you've witnessed the scene. My experience is obviously limited, but in some circumstances at school DD can look like a statue surrounded by aimless activity (Wilshaw's 'low level' disruption). Take her out of the frame and that activity is now universal and thus less evident because there's no point of reference to compare it against. Put her back in the frame and her stillness and self-control forces you to see and perhaps confront the other children for being a bit too far out of control.

That freaked me out a little the first time I saw it because she looked so detached and alone in the crowd, but later DD cheerfully explained how she was perfectly happy in a kind of meditative mode, taking the world in and just thinking whatever.

"the teacher constantly uses lolly sticks or just picks children to answer"

It appears to be quite rare in her secondary, but one of her teachers voluntarily mused on doing that during the whizzy parents' evening conversation. I quite liked them for being the only one to assume some responsibility rather than dumping it all on DD's plate. That kind of questioning approach has been quite helpful for her.

"Americans treat shyness like it's a mental illness and I hope we are not going the same way."

Looks to me like we're almost there in schools.

Are you going to raise the issue with the school then?

...extroverts who hog discussions, call out or don't listen. Yet those extroverts are often called 'bubbly, confident, willing, lively'

Er, no. It might get spun as "so enthusiastic!" with a false grin by the yr1 teacher. When you watch the child in class they are actively punished for calling out (not being able to wait their turn). The ones who don't listen get shoved up right next to the teacher so she can admonish them quickly & keep close eye on what they're doing. You can tell how naughty your child is by where they sit during carpet time.

I dunno about 'hogging' discussion. My introverts said often there was no point in raising their hand because teacher didn't like to call on them (wanted to give the other children more time to find the answer). The only kids who seem to hog discussion are the least articulate ones who need more time to explain the answer. Which is fine by me.

"Are you going to raise the issue with the school then?"

Yes, by-and-by.

Most of DD's apparently defective genes are of course mine and I'm um.. not ready to respond to this because I've still got some angles to explore. I'm also self-aware enough to leave something like this for a few days to find out if it was just transient outrage or if it still winds me up.

It still winds me up. Quite a lot. I want a meaningful resolution where they're genuinely enlightened so to speak, which requires a better approach than those e-mails or meetings where the school simply raises it's defences and lobs buckets of this season's eduGobbledygook at me. I've got a cunning plan or two involving horses' mouths, but first need to conspire with some parents who have children in the same boat (like attracts like, so a few of DD's closer friends are in there). This could take quite a while, but that's usually true for things that are worth doing.

"they are actively punished for calling out"

DD told some stories over tea tonight about a few Y8 children, one in particular, who continually do that and wreck a lot of the 'classroom dynamic' (have done since they hit Y7). Perhaps it's their genes. One subject teacher puts them in their place so it apparently can be done, whereas I'm told that the rest just let it happen.

Most of DD's apparently defective genes are of course mine

Well yes, but you are different people with different personalities, and will not always respond in the same way to any given situation. Have you asked your dd to talk to you about why she doesn't contribute in class as much as the teachers would like?

Have you considered that there maybe another school where your daughter may feel more comfortable?

If she doesn't learn to contribute and engage with debate, without spending time thinking about all the angles, she'll come a cropper at university.

She may be able to avoid presentations and discussions in a work situation (though interviews are a discussion process and often require some sort of presentation), but she won't at university.

And yes a lot of your posts are self indulgent twaddle - emphasis on the twaddle. You both need to get over yourselves.

Please have some sympathy for the extrovert... DS used to call out, monologue and enthusiastically dominate class discussions. I overheard him being described as "a pain the arse" as opposed to 'bubbly, confident, willing, lively'. He had dyslexia and couldn't show his knowledge or express himself in his written work.

I wouldn't get overly hung up blaming extroverts for why your DD doesn't contribute much in class. IME a lot of teachers struggle to get any kids to put their hands up to answer questions. It's often not seen as cool to do so, especially for girls. If the teachers are asking DD to contribute more, chances are they're not facing a sea of enthusiastic extrovert children dying to answer questions and dominating discussions. More likely a class of bored / shy/ lazy/ self-conscious/too-cool-for-school kids who don't want to stick out.

"Have you asked your dd to talk to you.."

We never have to ask. School days are "fine", unless there's been some compliment or criticism from teacher when we get a voluntary objective report on that, what she thinks of their motive, especially her part in providing that and so on. There's no hint of sympathy seeking, even on occasions when some is deserved.

"Have you considered that there maybe another school "

There isn't one unless you want to give me a few hundred thousand quid for a bigger mortgage?

If she doesn't learn to contribute and engage with debate, without spending time thinking about all the angles, she'll come a cropper at university.

So much for non-twaddly minds and for that matter universities if they elevate quick crap answers over good ones. She knows how to contribute and debate, if anything she's too bloody good at it. This is fundamentally about context, the conditions in which she will and won't do that.

What do think happens when you put her in a place where she's quite passionate about something e.g. amongst some similar ability ilk somewhere like her beloved maths class? She won't be going to university to do a dozen subjects with full range mixed-ability and having to put her hand up to talk about the similarity between the contents of a fruit bowl and a bunch of characters in a play.

"I wouldn't get overly hung up blaming extroverts for why your DD doesn't contribute much in class"

That was really just an aside about the not brilliant class behaviour, not an excuse for her reserve. Fair point re. attitudes in the class. I'm sure there are some good motives for wanting her to play more, but repeatedly asking for hands-up isn't working. Other approaches are better for her, but few seem to use them at this school. I can't understand why given that these quiet ones are hardly rare.

"the similarity between the contents of a fruit bowl and a bunch of characters in a play." Great stuff! Fantastic for out of the box kids with a vivid imagination.

OP I think your defence if your DD ( natural) is clouding your judgement here.

Of course universities value a quick mind! Answers reached quickly are not necessarily 'crap' and answers that are overthought including all the angles are often pedestrian.

I am currently involved in the admissions process at one of the most selective universities in the UK ( the word?) and the interviews are around 20 mins.

I will expect students to think on the spot about new concepts/texts. And I will expect them to say something and have a go.
And quickly.

Those who cannot do this will not be offered a place. They wouldn't thrive here.

The world not the the word.

DS1 got those sorts of comments a couple of times on his reports. DS1 certainly enjoys talking, he isn't afraid of talking in front of the whole class either. His problem is that he would never push for his idea to be heard or to be used. He is very able, and is top of the class for most of the subjects. But because of this problem, when they do things in group, his idea may not be used. Once, his muscial teacher said he should contribute more to bring up his group's standard rather than let others to bring the group's standard down.

I do take the chance to talk about this with him, as I think this will affect him when he later started to work. Just think about it, when he has better ideas, if he doesn't make it to be heard, it's not going to be useful. I tried to let him teach DS2 things, take charge in DS2's party, make choice in our family life. I do hope these has helped him.

"Of course universities value a quick mind! Answers reached quickly are not necessarily 'crap' and answers that are overthought including all the angles are often pedestrian."

This will probably annoy some people, but whatever.

DD is fast and good at reasoning. The only metric I have to support that assertion is that she’s somewhere in the Y7 CAT (national) top 1% with a couple of those sub-tests hitting the ceiling and the others close behind. Possibly mediocre in your super-selective world, but not in her comp. Her views are not pedestrian when given some relatively rare room to 'fly' in what are still mostly mixed-ability classes in a low (resource) priority KS3.

Instead of ‘thinks around the angles’ in that context, perhaps I should have said ‘bothers to use her brain’.

”when they do things in group, his idea may not be used.”

At risk of getting sucked into another very long-standing war, group work has only seemed to work for DD when the children pick the group i.e. she’s amongst close friends. Or when she’s the only one who does anything so her ideas win by default, but that not uncommon scenario annoys her. I enjoyed this take on it all:

teachingbattleground.wordpress.com/2008/08/03/group-work/

I don't know how they do music lessons when some children may have been learning an instrument/theory for years and other have not. Yes you can study different genres and so on, but it must be really difficult when it comes to actually making some music.

OP, you can have my very first

I joined this thread in good faith, and I also sent you a personal message (to which you have not deigned to respond). Since my experiences and those of another family member were similar, I thought I might be able to help.

Your recent posts have been a pile of smart-arse clever-clogs sheer supercilious bloody-minded bollocks.

I'm out.

I think the OP has been pushed into a defensive corner and perhaps disclosed more than they intended to from their original post...

OP - you clearly do not like your DD's school. It sounds to me like the school has an issue with a low level of disruption rather than a few extroverted pupils dominating the answering of questions. Are there any better schools in traveling distance which might now have some places in Year 8? Or get on the waiting list in case things get worse at this school? Is private school for years 9-11 a possibility? With a scholarship/bursary?

Failing that, are things likely to get better for her during Y9? Will she be set for more of her subjects? If she's self-assured, contributes in some classes, is happy to do presentations and continues to be in the spotlight as a soloist, can you conspire with your DD to pay no attention to the negative remarks about class contributions? Or send this to the school ideas.ted.com/how-to-teach-a-young-introvert/