Go to war for the introverts?

[PiqueABoo]

Naturally cheerful Y8 DD has been saying she “hates” school a lot this week and for her that's new and troubling.

That is because we’ve had another parents’ evening where despite some pleasant comments, the most common critical message has been that she must participate more in the classroom in order to improve in their subject. The presentation of that message in the child's presence has ranged from sensitive to jaw-droppingly brutal.

The assertion is absurd because she is one of their very highest academic performers who is constrained by the pace of the teaching and assessment, not by her failure to be an in-class attention-seeking Hand-Up girl.

I. Am. Sick. And. Bloody. Tired. Of. It.

If it's like this for DD then $deity help the ones with less shiny academic performance because they can't obtain the same certainty about what does or doesn't affect their performance in school-stuff.

So what to do? I'm simmering, want to shove a mountain of the system's sanctimonious platitudes about inclusion/diversity down their throats until they choke on them, surrender and stop expecting every child to conform to a specific shallow stereotype. But if they have the wit to absorb the message they wouldn’t need one in the first place, so that would probably be futile.

[EveryLittleThing]

Expecting everyone in class to put their hands up is very old fashioned teaching. It's the teacher's job to use effective and targeted questioning and other strategies to ensure everyone is participating in class. And therefore to pass the buck onto your child by saying she needs to participate more is unacceptable imho

[PiqueABoo]

@VulcanWoman: "Try and let it go in one ear, out of the other, you can't force someone to be something they are not. Your Daughter sounds like she's doing just fine."

DD has a dash of Vulcan. Quite rational when she's not being madcap and she often reprimands me with a single raised eyebrow.

You're right and I know DD is fine & dandy, but she's taking it personally. A bit less so since I started this thread because she compared notes with friends and found a couple in the same boat.

[BoboChic]

Personality traits and learned skills are quite separate things.

[HocusCrocus]

cross posted there - sorry - dinner on.

[HocusCrocus]

I cannot thank the lord of all common sense enough that I was a reasonably old parent when I had Ds and that there was no such thing as mumsnet when he was growing up


now, of course - university (cough cough) - entirely different Oxbridge - London - Edinburgh - Durham anyone ?

Ach OP you'll do what you do.

[PiqueABoo]

"Maybe not - but I'll still give it a go"

I wouldn't expect anything else. Especially when they're younger because a problem might be something you can help sort out, as opposed to a stubborn part of their nature.

The key message is that if you do run into one of those bits that just won't shift after years of trying, then it's almost certainly not because you're a rubbish parent.

"The rôle of parents is to provide a safe and nurturing environment to enable their children's unique personality to flourish, while acquiring the skills necessary for independent adult life."

We're on roughly the same page, but I think we'll have to agree to differ on where some things sit on a scale running from natural trait to a learnt skill.

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

I have not attempted to change my DS personality. Why would I? He's lovely.

But I have helped him change his behaviours so that he has thrived at school and been valued and will hopefully continue to do so going forward.

[VulcanWoman]

Try and let it go in one ear, out of the other, you can't force someone to be something they are not. Your Daughter sounds like she's doing just fine.

[BoboChic]

The rôle of parents is to provide a safe and nurturing environment to enable their children's unique personality to flourish, while acquiring the skills necessary for independent adult life. Parents don't change their children's personality - they grow it.

[HocusCrocus]

"the efficacy of parenting has still not been proved."

Maybe not - but I'll still give it a go, (without benefit of researchers etc)

Good luck with you and yours.

[PiqueABoo]

"if you have an easy way to do this, I am all ears."

I don't think there is one.

Some 40-60% of variance in the 'Big 5' behavioral traits (effectively personality) is heritable i.e. direct or indirect effects of their genes. Yes there's apparently some wriggle room in those numbers, but Judith Rich Harris's group socialization theory from the end of last century still seems to be standing and that says the wriggle room largely belongs to their peers, not their parents. Here's a quote from Harris:

"Despite herculean efforts by researchers, the efficacy of parenting has still not been proved."

That's not to say parents or anyone else can't damage their children, but assuming they're growing up in a vaguely reasonable environment you have very little power to modify their nature to match some ideological ideal for future leaders working in jobs that don't exist yet etc.

[HocusCrocus]

I reckon there are a great many parents of various children who have had "speak up more in class" as a comment at some point or another at a parents' evening. How it is said to one side and if it were said in an unhelpful way I sympathise -

1. If you and DD think how it is all going so far is fine - one choice.
   
2. At Year 8 - "internalising her cleverness and personality" - you're in a different world than I am and you might be.
   
3. Trying to consider " she also works the angles on the teacher i.e. how an opinion answer may play with what she knows of their character. Then there are angles for her peers e.g. who else is beginning to put their hand up etc"
   

It might just be they want her to answer the question or offer an opinion. She's a schoolgirl, not a politician.

What I would say, and if I misunderstand I apologise - but when you said something like -the teacher asked about how characters in a play could be like a bowl of fruit. Well, let's just make a wild assumption that the teacher had prepared that question and thought it might just make or reinforce a point about a play, then it is a little unfair of your DD not to join in. It is different from - Who was the 3rd wife of Henry VIII - the teacher is asking for opinions and by not joining in then your DD is actually not letting herself have her opinions/ views be examined at first hand and also she is not contributing to the wider discussion which might help her peers.

If she finds asking a question in class hugely stressful - that is an entirely different matter, and one which is hard for some children. It doesn't read like this is your DD's problem. She doesn't sound like she wants/ feels she needs to join in.

My comment is nothing to do with later jobs etc but between Yr 8 and the rest of her school career my instinct would be to encourage her to not overthink (and there's a thing I actually don't say lightly) but just get involved. If she has a problem with being able to answer a question in public, or not being able to enter into a public discussion then that could be a different matter.


But - you've thought it through .........................

[BoboChic]

Learning to speak up in class is a necessary skill. It is no more an option that some DC can opt out of with no penalty than is not handing in homework an option.

[GinandJag]

Chill.

You have a high performing DD who is doing everything right already.

What can she do to improve? Make a positive contribution to the lesson - share her brilliance with the rest of the class.

A life skill (and duty) is to share her brilliance with the rest of the world. They are not empty platitudes from the teacher.

[SettlinginNicely]

Supporting children to present themselves in a way which will ensure they are valued is the job of a good parent. It will pay dividends going forward and isn't especially difficult to do.

I'll be honest. I find it hard. I really don't intend to be snarky here, but if you have an easy way to do this, I am all ears. Sincerely.

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

No introvert has to do anything.

They won't be arrested for not speaking up.

Instead they can spend their life getting really annoyed on the internet about not being valued and how it ain't right.

[JaWellNoFine]

Why? Why must the introvert participate. .I am an introvert. Just because the extrovert idea of learning is based on Discussion it does not mean that I cannot learn by listening and thinking it through on my own. I do not remember ever raising my hand in class but I was on the debating and quiz teams. Who exactly benefits by this forced introvert 'noise' .... not the introvert.

Yes, in some jobs, talking and in your faceness eg like salesmen is necessary. Few introverts would apply. But many professions don't have to be extroverts. They may need to be able to stand up and give a speech or presentation but that is not the same as raising your hand and talking in clas (presentations are prepped). In an office environment when they are the expert, they speak up just fine. Because their colleagues, and they themselves, know they are the expert and are happy to speak.

Maybe we should be teaching children to listen to each other instead. Apparently the current lesson is that the person shouting loudest or talking the most (regardless of their actual knowledge) will be heard.

[FaFoutis]

I have been part of a project on this at university level lately. This is good, I agree with Bruce:
www.timeshighereducation.com/features/no-place-for-introverts-in-the-academy/2015836.article

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

Good schools certainly do ensure that a few pupils do not dominate lessons.

But that still requires the introverts to participate. In fact more so as there is the expectation that there is space.

Supporting children to present themselves in a way which will ensure they are valued is the job of a good parent. It will pay dividends going forward and isn't especially difficult to do.

[JaWellNoFine]

If the teachers methods do not work to teach a quiet child then it is the teacher who is failing and needs to change their teaching method. Not the child. There is nothing wrong with being quiet and not putting your hand up.

How about telling the loud kids to STFU for a change... Or don't they have to change..

I find that today's world has no time or place for anyone who is not loud and brash and in your face.

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

Fair enough fox.

We can all only give our opinions. I speak as the mother of a very able yet rather introverted/quiet child.

And my approach has always been to enable him to navigate the world as it is rather than what he/I wish it were.

It's been a pretty successful approach in that my DS is very happy at school and is highly valued by his teachers. He understands entirely that to get what he wants in life he needs to be flexible and that often means presenting himself in a way that initially required done effort ( it's second nature now).

[foxessocks]

They didn't particularly fight the school I didn't mean it to sound that way. They just made the point at all the parents evenings that they weren't concerned by it (my dad is was teacher himself and he could see I was doing well and enjoying school). I did enjoy school I just didn't enjoy being told constantly at parents evenings that I should talk more and nobody seemed to remember the times that I HAD participated really well that's what upset me. And it wasn't the only reason I didn't go to uni and I've been perfectly successful without going to uni, it wouldn't have been for me I don't think. I didn't mean to sound aggrieved it's just a sore spot really but I don't think about it mum I just saw this post and it brought back those feelings!

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

fox would it not have made more sense for your parents to help you navigate this territory rather than fight the school?

It wouldn't have been hard to do that ( and certainly would not have required a personality transplant). Then you would have been happy at school, not avoided university and wouldn't as an adult still feel aggrieved.

[foxessocks]

I haven't yet read the full thread so sorry about that but I've read the op and some of the responses so far. I just wanted to say that although my own dd is not yet secondary school age, I was this child myself at secondary school. I was constantly criticised at parents evenings for being too quiet in class and not joining in discussions. It really wound me up and it upset me because I DID used to contribute to discussions if I had something relevant and useful to say. I felt as though what they were really saying was, "Just say anything it doesn't matter what it is as long as you speak a certain amount of times every lesson." It felt like when I was at school this sort of you must constantly speak attitude was just starting. My mum and dad argued as well and told the teachers that they were not concerned about it because I was doing well and I was happy and I was not shy I was just thoughtful and a bit more reserved. I was also told I wouldn't be able to "hide from view" at university. Well guess what? I didn't go to university probably because they put me off and I thought it might all be horrendous discussion where I was forced to speak constantly so instead I went travelling on my own and became a snowboard instructor and then I came home and got a job in an office and got promoted a few times and generally have been quite successful do it doesn't matter if you are a bit quiet at school and that doesn't mean you aren't confident. My dad actually said in his speech at my wedding that I constantly surprised people with my confidence and self assurance despite being a quiet and thoughtful person. ..people think it's shyness and it's not the same thing. And even if it was then being shy is absolutely fine as well because it takes all sorts in this world. We can't a be the same and it would be boring if we were.

Sorry for the long post but this is still a bit of a sore spot with me lots of other things I could go into but I'll leave it there!

[PiqueABoo]

“Perhaps you have left out some details but in my experience it is much better to work with the school than aim to work against and get back at the school. “

Detail is missing and it's not vengeance. I didn’t want this to be yet another DC comes home and moans about [whatever], then the parent knee-jerks and rushes round the school to moan about how they’re being terribly horrid by not meeting their precious DC’s unique needs etc. I’d tread softly, but it’s still much the same category.

I’m probably trying to tick too many boxes at once, but would like my DD to take a bit more responsibility for sorting out her problems and that bunch seem to enjoy collaborating on project stuff. So I thought if I got them looking at generic participation (including but not exclusively about their issues) I could sidle up to the school and tell them these particular children are feeling the participation pressure that’s been dumped on them, but we thought it would be constructive if they... and could the school perhaps support them with a couple of little aspects etc.