Go to war for the introverts?

[PiqueABoo]

Naturally cheerful Y8 DD has been saying she “hates” school a lot this week and for her that's new and troubling.

That is because we’ve had another parents’ evening where despite some pleasant comments, the most common critical message has been that she must participate more in the classroom in order to improve in their subject. The presentation of that message in the child's presence has ranged from sensitive to jaw-droppingly brutal.

The assertion is absurd because she is one of their very highest academic performers who is constrained by the pace of the teaching and assessment, not by her failure to be an in-class attention-seeking Hand-Up girl.

I. Am. Sick. And. Bloody. Tired. Of. It.

If it's like this for DD then $deity help the ones with less shiny academic performance because they can't obtain the same certainty about what does or doesn't affect their performance in school-stuff.

So what to do? I'm simmering, want to shove a mountain of the system's sanctimonious platitudes about inclusion/diversity down their throats until they choke on them, surrender and stop expecting every child to conform to a specific shallow stereotype. But if they have the wit to absorb the message they wouldn’t need one in the first place, so that would probably be futile.

[Millymollymama]

Teachers can tell the difference between the "me me me" ones and the ones who do know the answer but do not want to give it. A good teacher will want a range of children giving answers and will want the quieter ones to feel confident about giving their opinion. The "me me me" ones should not be allowed to dominate. Mostly teachers want to encourage children and not put them off by ridiculing wrong answers. It is a skill that develops as children get older and mature. Clearly in French, being able to say something will prove to be vital.

I like the idea that children work in small groups to give presentations. All children should be given a role and encouraged to participate. All Reception children in my DDs old school had to say something in class assembly in front of parents. It became a natural thing for everyone to say something. Giving an opinion in class at secondary school is developing a skill for later life and I think a gentle start in school is to be welcomed. It should be free from criticism but obviously something wrong should be corrected. Getting what you want in the future may depend on an interview and being part of a team.

[dodobookends]

Teachers will want the quiet ones to participate in lessons and will encourage them. Some quiet ones just need to be asked. Others will be wishing the floor would open and swallow them up.

The thing is though, that teachers may have no personal experience at all of what it feels like for these children. Standing up in front of a load of people and talking all day is something that comes naturally to teachers. Perhaps it isn't easy for them to empathise with children and young people who find it incredibly difficult, and just can't do it.

[Brytte]

I do agree that it's an important skill to develop in children. Clearly there are many teachers who have good ways of getting all children to contribute. Perhaps the teachers who are putting the emphasis on your DD changing need to, instead, consult their colleagues and adopt some of their techniques.

My dd's getting a bit better, so maybe her report will be okay. Given that your DD is saying she hates school, I would raise it with her HOY and see if they can do something to help her. Good luck.

[Peregrina]

dobo - I think you have hit the nail on the head there. Some teachers just don't understand quiet ones. Therefore, they are not able to distinguish between those who are happy to contribute when asked and those who wish the floor would open up and swallow them up.

[Micah]

I'm an introvert and struggled at school amongst all the "big" characters, class clowns, attention seekers etc.

I don't agree it will hold them back at uni. I absolutely thrived. It's not about being shy, presentations and public speaking I was very good at.

Class discussions though were entirely different. Everyone was there to learn, people listened to each other, there was no piss taking or laughing at people.

It's when the extroverts dominate, and are allowed to dominate, that introverts prefer not to be fighting for attention.

I suggest the teachers control the class so everyone feels able to speak up.

[dodobookends]

This isn't an extrovert/introvert thing though, or shyness. It is about more than that - it's horrible debilitating self-consciousness and an anxiety that can develop into a real phobia about communicating with others.

The only way I can describe it is that it's akin to complete rabbit-in-the-headlights stage fright. Actors who've spent their entire careers treading the boards have had to give up performing if they develop real stage fright. It's completely overwhelming.

[Micah]

This isn't an extrovert/introvert thing though, or shyness. It is about more than that - it's horrible debilitating self-consciousness and an anxiety that can develop into a real phobia about communicating with others.

The only way I can describe it is that it's akin to complete rabbit-in-the-headlights stage fright. Actors who've spent their entire careers treading the boards have had to give up performing if they develop real stage fright. It's completely overwhelming

I can't see where the OP says any of that, unless I've missed something?

O/p says her DD is doing well academically, but teachers are saying she must "speak up more". To me that is not about her not being able to speak up, do presentations etc, but not wanting to shout down the louder children in the class in general lessons.

The teacher should be able to manage a class so all can have the opportunity to speak. A bunch of louder kids shouldn't be constantly dominating class discussions over quieter children.

[viioletsarentblue]

It's annoying OP.
As far as I'm concerned, introversion should be seen as being is as normal as extroversion.
It's what makes us all unique, different and interesting.

It really annoys me the way that introverted people are made to feel as if they have something wrong with them.

It's quite possible to be introverted, prefer your own company to social situations and NOT have a condition of some sort.
It just means you're a quiet, introverted person. There is no need to stick a label on everybody with introversion.

[AgnesDiPesto]

I was like this at school and so was DS1

DS teachers ranged from those who were really sympathetic and confess they were the same at school to those who are blunt and annoying.

I do agree it is good to develop speaking skills though as language and english exams will include oral element

I think i was so scarred from my experience of being an introvert at a large rough school that it made me think of other options for ds. as he's v bright he sat exams for private bursaries at 11 and got offered 3 - so he now goes to a lovely small private school with bursary and scholarship. We still got comments in year 7 & 8 about not speaking but he's getting better at it - much helped by small classes, compulsory after school activities, regularly getting picked to represent school at competitions (easier in a small pool of children) and not being able to hide so easily in small group. We got really positive comments this year (yr 9) from teachers who taught him in yr 7 about how much his confidence has grown so i think it was the right choice. he would have done well academically anywhere but in a state school he would have come out as lacking in confidence as he went in - they are happy to point out the problem but not offer a solution. Private schools are much better at working on these skills. Many private schools offer bursaries at yr 9 or 11

could she set herself a goal of asking one question or making one contribution per subject a week and building up. As DS is in a small class he has learnt he has to speak or the teacher will just ask him a question and its better to get in early and say something he is sure of than get asked a tricky question later!

Doing other activities help too drama is an obvious one but music or choirs / sport etc too

[BrianButterfield]

Teachers are confident and happy talking in front of big groups as adults. Some of us were also quiet children and know how, actually, it would have been much better to have gained this confidence earlier in life and how much of a gift it is. We also realise it's a skill you can learn - but you can't learn something if you never try.

[Peregrina]

A lot of you are confusing being shy and unable to talk, to being quiet and preferring not to talk, but quite happy to when you feel you have something to contribute.

I don't know what category OP's DD comes into, but if it's the latter it's most annoying to be constantly criticised for 'having lost your tongue' etc. but still lacking the ability/are not cheeky enough to come back with the answer that 'unlike some others, you speak when you have something worth saying'. Now that is an ability which comes with age.

[roguedad]

I'd stand your ground on this one. Schools (I think under the influence of bollocks from the US) are trying to push kids towards a whole range of soft skills including presentational. It's one (very useful) thing to learn how to debate properly and in public, but I think there is too much emphasis now on style and presentation and not enough on substance or content. If she chooses the written word to make well-prepared arguments that is a whole lot better than standing up and loudly talking tripe. I got really fed up with one DS who spent ages working on Power Point colours and not nearly enough on proper content! I'd suggest to the teacher and your DD that you are proud that she is not a loudmouth and prefers to contribute in other ways. And remember the old saying, true as always, "empty vessels make the most noise"!

[noblegiraffe]

I'm a maths teacher. In my subject the issue with quiet students isn't necessarily that they don't put their hand up to volunteer answers (although this would be nice) but that if they were stuck or confused that I'm not confident that they would ask for help. Students who don't like talking to the teacher in front of the class definitely do need to find some way around this. They might stay back at the end, or ask me when everyone is working, or ask another student to ask me. By the time they get to A-level, they definitely do need to be talking to the teacher in lessons.

[SettlinginNicely]

There is a difference between being shy, being anxious, and being plain old disengaged.

Positive engagement is difficult in a class of 30 with a few kids who are always trying to answer every question not really giving other kids time or space to answer.

I remember school being boring for these reasons. It felt like I could try to stay engaged and have my hand up constantly, or tune out because it was too easy.

All this changed in uni. The classes with discussion were much smaller and the questions much more difficult and engaging. There was more room to talk and more reason to do so. Other students contributions were more interesting too.

I am not sure what high school teachers can/should do. Attempts to call on students at random rather than those that consistently raise their hands is one way.

[lljkk]

I don't know what the value is of participating in class, especially. Probably builds confidence and confirms social status. Also makes it easier to speak up & assert your needs & rights in other contexts. These are useful skills worth encouraging.

I'm introverted but not because of anxiety. I was sent to drama which was waste of time, but that's another discussion. I still LOATHE presentations but it's nice that I know I can basically do them okay when forced to. This whole "war" thing on MN, supposedly between introverts & extroverts, is weird. Unhealthy & dare I say it, rather one-sided & imaginary.

[dodobookends]

I can't see where the OP says any of that She doesn't - I was talking from my own personal experience about how it feels; and about how people who have never had social anxiety may be unable to comprehend just how debilitating it can be.

[PiqueABoo]

Christmas is coming and I've had to neglect my thread. This has generated some quite interesting comments and responding to them directly would have been difficult/messy, but they haven't been forsaken. Sorry this a bit long, but it takes some of them in..

My "war" means fighting the premise that some extrovert stereotype is the pinnacle of human perfection and all children can be like that if only they would stop being lazy and made an effort. That is pernicious nonsense built on a casual, ignorant assumption that behavioural traits are largely a personal or parenting choice as opposed being influenced by genes and peers with parenting in a poor third place. The reality is that there is a strong biological component and to borrow DisappointedIdealist’s phrase (from the title of an excellent blog on mindsets) some seem intent on “Telling Penguins to Flap Harder”.

Introvert is a dodgy, dichotomous label we apply to a broad church, but DD will do some quite scary social things. Three times in the last year she has put herself in a lonely solo spot-light in front of a hall full of hundreds of parents. Unlike any of the local extroverts which is interesting, although ‘solo’ might be significant. These occasions were for reading, singing and playing a musical instrument respectively and although that public aspect was very hard for her and there were lots of pre-flight nerves, she reigns them in and reliably pulls off that kind of thing. So no huge problems here, but we’re still left with the classroom.

Another reality is that most of us deploy different variants of our personailty for different social scenarios. The DD we see at home can be very talkative and persuasive, a bit like some debating club champion, but that’s not the DD they see at school because she adapts her behaviour for a quite different set of social forces. It’s quite common to mock it, but there can be quite a lot of substance in ”Well they’re not like that at home!”

I’ve had years of occasional discussions with at-home DD about in-class DD and she’s been remarkably open and thoughtful in those. The latter actually encompasses part of the problem because if you ask her a "thinky" question then she has what I can only call a compulsion genuinely think about it, work the angles until personally content with the answer. DD is anything but slow, but the way she tells it the tempo of questions in the classroom rarely provides enough time for that little process and she just won’t submit the first thing that pops into her head.

It doesn’t stop there because she also works the angles on the teacher i.e. how an opinion answer may play with what she knows of their character. Then there are angles for her peers e.g. who else is beginning to put their hand up, whether they do that lots or rarely, the chance of one of their answers being a good one, whether her answer might make some of them think she’s "boasting" etc. She hasn’t talked about doing all of those together at the same time, but it’s clear to me that DD just doesn’t just get on and put her hand up without considering many other potential effects.

When I first saw the word "sensitive" in a sentence about introverts I assumed it meant "fragile child who cries a lot" and dismissed it as lightweight life-style twaddle that didn’t apply to outwardly stoic DD. By-and-by it turned out that they mean more sensitive to all their environmental input and that definitely fits. DD takes in and considers a bit too much, especially the other people effects, but an apparent consequence is that she is quietly very popular (not to be confused with skirt hemline and inch below knickers popular). Everyone’s friend. Quite a few children should resent her because she’s relatively good at lots of things, but all that considering and reserve seems to have removed her from the fray. Mess with aspects of her in-class behaviour and that may well change for the worse, so I’d rather it was left well alone.

If it ain’t broke…

[PiqueABoo]

Well a thread I start is necessarily self-indulgent, but thanks for convincing me that DD's thoughtful, considerate approach to people is indeed 'precious'.

[nooka]

I have an introverted child and an extroverted child, both now teenagers. Interestingly when they were younger I would have described them totally the other way around, as dd (the introvert) is much more sociable than ds (the extrovert).

At school dd's introversion is starting to become an issue as she is very very reluctant to ask for help or let on that she might not have 100% understood something. She's always been a very high performer academically, but as subjects become harder her wish not to call too much attention to herself is starting to cause her real issues because the teachers can't tell if she is struggling, and as she is bright she is getting by so they don't see an issue. But for her there is a huge issue as she is also a perfectionist, so getting Bs is to her a total failure.

I'd really be careful to assume that if it's not broke now it never will be. dd is a singer and an actor and when comfortable very outgoing (just exhausted afterward) so it's just the school spotlight that seems to be an issue. We live in Canada where verbal ability is prized and much practiced too. I'm not totally sure why dd won't put herself forward. I think that part of it is that she is very influenced by the nature of the teacher. If she thinks she might get knocked back she is much much more reluctant to speak up.

ds on the other hand doesn't really care too much about the reception. If he needs help or wants to put himself forward he will. If that makes him a bit 'me me' he doesn't really care. He does tend to always have his hand up, mainly because he is very engaged with his schoolwork and has interesting things to say. Plus he feels bad for the teachers when the class appears disengaged - there are knock on effects of having lots of kids who won't speak in subjects where debate and sharing knowledge is important.

[nooka]

OP if your dd is thoughtful and considerate perhaps ask her to put herself in the position of the teacher so she can better understand why it is a problem for teaching and for classroom dynamics when too many children appear to be disengaged? Becoming one of those that the teacher can reliably call on has plenty of advantages too. Teachers are human too and get discouraged by a sea of blank faces, especially if they are passionate about their subjects. It's been really interesting to watch ds's grades and positive comments increase the more he has engaged (he was previously the child we spent ages talking to primary teachers about becasue of behavioural issues, now a few years later all his teachers really enjoy having him in their classes).

[ethelb]

Introverts aren't necessarily 'quiet' by the way. But they may find class/group discussion challenging due to the engagement required with other people.

It is quite insulting to suggest introverts are inherently 'shy' or 'quiet'. It suggests you don't understand what introversion is.

[RubberDuck]

I agree with ethelb. I have an ambivert son and an introverted son. The introvert is actually very chatty and contributes a lot (constructively) in class. He just really needs downtime and his own space later to recover.

My ambivert son has an equal number of teachers who thinks he contributes a fair amount and those that say he's too quiet. It's not particularly lack of confidence, just that some environments are more conducive for him to participate than not.

[Iggi999]

The way you describe her thinking about all the "angles" makes her seem excessively self-conscious. I do think it would be a benefit to her to think of ways to throw caution to the wind. I was a top-of-the-class person who rarely spoke, and my career has certainly suffered from my over-thinking of presentations and interviews. I suggest children pick one thing to do - eg answer one question - and then expand that when they are comfortable doing it.