Teacher's commet

[DorothyL]

Dd is in year 10 at a highly selective school. She has always been told she should contribute more in lessons but has always found it hard, being rather shy. Being surrounded by lots of clever and confident peers hasn't always helped. Today she put her hand up in English to ask to go to a music lesson, to which the teacher said "well yes it would be surprising if Dorothydaughter actually made a contribution". Dd felt mortified and was a bit teary about it tonight. Apparently this teacher is often rather sar astic, but am I wrong to
find this a bit counterproductive?

I do understand that teacherwith2kids . I am an English teacher by trade. However, this is someone who orefers not to speak in class situations and whose throat tightens up at the thought of doing so. 'Not an ideas person' in her own words. It will hold her back in life, it is just a fact. It is probably how she has become 'Not an ideas person'.

Nothing wrong with being given a task and executing it diligently and well but that is a follower, not a leader. Nothing wrong with it at all but it is likely to limit her in life and possibly in relationships. Communication is, imho, the most key of skills. Creativity and flexibility will be demanded for future careers - people will create and develop roles as they arrive the world changes so fast. Jobs become obsolete and people create new roles as the world moves on. But even outside of new technologies, look at more traditional roles: Dr, teacher, nurse, carer, receptionist- communication is key.

I think the teacher is awful. I didn't think they were allowed to be this negative in this day and age

She can communicate well just not in front of a large-ish group of people! All those jobs you mention don't require that - even a teacher can be shy yet still manage brilliantly in front of children.

She's thinking of doing speech and language therapy.

I can see how she would cope with SALT work. I thought you meant she was generally quiet and preferred not to speak and join in but be given things to do which she just got on with. Sorry.

LuluJakey1 I do think you are making a lot of assumptions about things to do with a child not wanting to talk a lot. A follower not a leader, limited in relationships. Those are big assumptions to make. There seems to be an assumption about what constitutes success. It may be because we (as a society very influenced by the USA) have very closely defined views about what success looks like that people are too easily pigeon-holed as failing or succeeding. A lot of it is cultural too.

I agree that there are prevailing ideas of what makes a successful person, but I am trying to encourage dd to not feel that it is this one way or failure, which can be difficult when she is surrounded by alpha types.

Lulu for an English teacher - or any teacher - to accept that 'children are ignored and left behind' is pretty bad. No decent teacher should think that acceptable and no decent teacher should allow it to happen.

I agree with LuluJakey. Finding one's own voice is a KSF in the modern world, in so many dimensions (not just work). The issue here is to address the developmental needs of Dorothy's DD, not blame the teacher.

Shouldn't a teacher help with that though, not make sarcastic comments?

What is a KSF?

It's absolutely appropriate to criticise a teacher where criticism is due Bobo. This child isn't 'at fault'. She's just not shouty and loud and some of the shouty and loud kids can go on to be far less 'successful' that the more reticent ones. Shouty and loud doesn't guarantee success; it's how you're thinking that matters, not how loudly you think it. A teacher has a duty to encourage all pupils to contribute and learn, not to ignore and leave behind the passive ones. It's a real indictment of the teacher.

That said, a bit more confidence sounds as though it would be no bad thing but that may well come in time - particularly if the teacher steps up to the plate and does his job properly, rather than being funny at a shy youngster's expense.

First, I am sure that one can live a good life avoiding all forms of public speaking.

But why would you? It is not a skill on par with brain surgery . And indeed not having that skill can hold you back in any field.

One of my roles is an author ( one if the jobs mentioned above) and believe me I am regularly called upon to speak in front of large groups.

So how to help children who are not naturally vocal in groups.
I would say a two pronged attack is best. A parental / school partnership.

Parents who do not seek to protect their DC from the discomfort of speaking in public and in fact insist they do ( gently at first). Schools who include all DC in class discussions ( no option given to stay quiet) and regularly have DC speaking aloud in groups ( presentations, poetry recitals, productions, guiding prospective parents etc etc).

The comment was incredibly unhelpful! It is possible, though, that the teacher isn't aware that she is always shy and thinks she isn't trying in English. I have taught English in various settings and you will find people who struggle to be able to contribute verbally, especially when other students are very vocal.
I'd bring it up at parents evening rather than sending an email. One thing you can try at home is talking to dd about anticipating questions. For example, some questions are recaps of the previous lesson, which are much easier to answer than on-the-spot questions. She could practise a possible answer and if she puts her hand up, it is an effort to contribute, even if she isn't picked. Another way in is to volunteer to read something out. Once she's heard her voice in the room, she will get more confident. It took one of my undergraduate students a year, but they got there in the end!

Lulu,

DD 'doesn't contribute much verbally in class' (she is younger than the OP's daughter, and discussion / unprepared debate is not yet a critical success factor in her academic work - written work and prepared debate is much more important for her as yet).

However she is also an excellent public speaker and happy to speak and perform in front of an audience in a creative / dramatic role - been in professional panto twice, at the ages of 8 and 10, with singing / acting / dance / small speaking roles.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

BoboChic finding one's own voice is about having confidence in yourself and expressing yourself, it doesn't mean one needs to express oneself in every situation or in situations and ways others feel are supremely important.

As someone who pretty much hated school I would say school prepares some so very badly, and prepares for so little, or rather it did when I was at school. Having a dyslexic dd I have to say some areas have not changed! I would not say boo to a goose at school but I am not now very happy to speak publicly on anything I know about!.

SheGotAllDaMoves although many jobs may involved some element of speaking to multiple people, I am not sure that they would all involved public speaking, although I appreciate your job does. Do you think it comes naturally to you or did you need to work on it, and if so how?

Personally, I think public speaking is a talent and you can be naturally good at it, or you can work very hard at doing it well and being good at it but still finding it very hard.

Teachers have a job that involves communicating with a class but they are hardly all good at public speaking.

In fact I find the idea we should all be able to express ourselves in the same way or we should all be good at public speaking, and the idea that some teachers should convey this to pupils, or other adults should encourage children to feel if they cannot speak publicly they will fail. Well to me that borders on 'pushing' all children into being the same.

Great advice LooseAtTheSeams.

SheGotAllDaMoves what kind of books do you write? (nosy me!)

Ps Teacher I am sure you are a good teacher, I know lots are.

I am not meaning to be difficult about any of this.I am not accepting that children get ignored or left behind by teachers- I am stating it can happen. It does happen.The point about public- speaking is irrelevant here. We are not talking about a child who does not enjoy public speaking, we are talking about one who can't join in a discussion with her peers in a classroom and whose throat closes up if she is asked a question and who would prefer to be given a task she can get on and complete by herself. All I said was communication is a key skill and if she finds it that hard she'll struggle in lots of jobs. It is ridiculous to say she could be a successful teacher in that case- can't speak in a classroom. Teachers have to lead learning and discussion- in classrooms, with whole classes, small groups, in corridors, assembly halls, with groups of staff and parents. You need to be prepared to speak up to do that successfully. That is all I said. I have not condemned her to failure, her mum has explained since she is much better at communicating in other situations so that's all very reassuring now we know.

italian I don't know if the aptitude for public speaking ( by which I include speaking to a largish group as well as the 'general public') is natural ie innate.

Perhaps it is? I don't recall a time when I was fearful of it or didn't enjoy it. Though that might just as well be to do with being an only child as genes IYSWIM.

And whilst I don't think it's imperative to have as a skill, I do think it's an asset in so many areas of life ( not just work related by any means). Like being a competent communicator in the written word, or a competent mathematician or whatever.

Of course people can manage without these skills. But life is easier with them, I think.

FWIW I have a DS who was a very shy child. But he is now a perfectly articulate 16 year old. He won't necessarily press himself forward in class but nor will he shy away from saying his piece. Both his primary and secondary school would not have allowed that!

He now actively enjoys a good debate or presentation ( God how he loves power point).

Personally, I am very pleased he now has this skill. Not because I want to channel him in any particular direction but because his life will be far easier with it. And the job of his parents and his school is to equip him for life, no?

Ps I write crime novels mostly. Though I have branched out into writing for radio and telly. I'm currently writing a book and screen play concurrently for a US production company .

The later project has required and continued to require me to be able to speak up very clearly in meetings etc!

One small point - Yr 10 at school is far too early imho to write a child off as not being able to speak in public. There are some good ideas and strategies already posted. And being able to speak in public is better than not I think. BUT ....

Obviously there are some people to whom speaking up and speaking in front of people comes more naturally. However, most - not all - but a lot - of people are perfectly able, with preparation, to give a perfectly good talk on something they know something about, given a bit of practice and teaching. This is enough for a lot of jobs. Not being a comedian in the Hollywood Bowl, granted, but a lot of jobs. I just wanted to give the OP some perspective that a shy yr 10 girl does not necessarily have to think about jobs which don't involve speaking.

There's a way to go yet .

which don't involve speaking

Speaking in public I meant - not taking a vow of silence

"I don't think you should say anything. Make d say something. She's year ten. Come on"

Are you the teacher Brenda?

You clearly are completely devoid of any empathy for teenagers who have social anxiety or lack confidence. It is people like you that make the shy ones feel bad about themselves. Comments like that will only undermine their confidence even more.

Your comments on this thread are very unhelpful.

Come on Brenda

hocus I completely agree.

We don't need to train everyone up to performer levels . Being a competent, engaging public speaker, who does not avoid it is more than enough for many.

And yes. things often come with time. DH was a very shy boy. His parents go on about it (and on and on and on). I suspect his teachers didn't know what his voice sounded like at school . And yet he is now a managing partner at a huge US law firm. His style remains quiet, measured.

Bunbaker I agree with every word you said.

Hope you never teach my children Brenda.

I do also think that a classroom full of 'clever, confident' cocky teenagers, trying to impress a teacher who obviously likes that sort of thing (hence the sarcastic comment) is very UNLIKE many adult work situations.

DD does an excellent - and hilarious - imitation of the behaviour of others in her English class (all 'me, me, me, choose me miss'). Discussion with her teacher at parents' evening showed that the teacher was clamping down on this to enable those - who she described as 'often the ablest and most mature' - who did not engage in this type of behaviour.

It sounds as if the teacher in the OP's scenario may well be valuing 'outgoing / verbal / confident' rather than 'content'. However, the majority of school subjects, in the end, are assessed almost entirely through written work.....

DorithyL, try not to worry about her career just yet.

Your daughter is exactly like I was at that age - I was cripplingly shy to the point that I would look like a beetroot if asked a question or made to present anything.

I was the same throughout university and in my 20s it just started to become easier. Funnily enough I was a biochemist, which is on your list of jobs for introverts. The list doesn't point out that you regularly have to present your research at least to your jab and sometimes to entire conferences!

Like anything else, public speaking is an acquired skill, time and practise are the only things that can help some people. My personality is quite different now, although I'm still an introvert, I can play the extrovert in work situations. I think the majority of introverted people do, I'm sure she will adapt to the world of work when the time comes.