Teacher's commet

[DorothyL]

Dd is in year 10 at a highly selective school. She has always been told she should contribute more in lessons but has always found it hard, being rather shy. Being surrounded by lots of clever and confident peers hasn't always helped. Today she put her hand up in English to ask to go to a music lesson, to which the teacher said "well yes it would be surprising if Dorothydaughter actually made a contribution". Dd felt mortified and was a bit teary about it tonight. Apparently this teacher is often rather sar astic, but am I wrong to
find this a bit counterproductive?

I wouldn't send it because your dds has asked you not to.

Does she do drama at all, it is fantastic for supporting and encouraging nervous speakers. A girl at our drama group is an elective mute but will now sing and speak in stage in front of lots of people obviously been a gradual transition over time but it could help her confidence.

Putting aside the fact that your DD was upset, why doesn't this teacher ensure that all pupils take part in class discussions?

A decent teacher should ensure that the more vocal pupils STFU and that quieter pupils are simply put on the spot. 'X what do you think?'

As a teacher myself I am surprised myself that the teacher seems to think sarcastic comments will make a shy pupil contribute more.

Some teachers are bullies. Some people justify this endlessly and get into a real huff when others don't agree that teachers being rude, sarcastic, mocking etc is fine and dandy. If he thinks that sort of snide unpleasantness is going to encourage a very shy teen to contribute to class discussions he must be rather stupid.

My yr10 DD is like this (has been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder). She can talk to some teachers, but others, the ones that make comments like this teacher, she can't talk to. Not all yr10s are the same emotionally and confidence wise. If one of her teachers had talked to her like this I would be speaking to them. Yes, children need to learn to fight their own battles, but that's hard when the battle 'attacks' come from a teacher in a position with more power.

I think education is a three-way thing between the teacher,parents & pupils - it's always being rammed down our throats how much we as parents must support our child's education. If it's a three-way thing why must the onus only be on the pupil and parents to speak up? As a parent, I'm not even in the classroom. It's up to the teacher to make the classroom a space where all pupils feel comfortable to be able to voice their opinions. Being sarcastic is not going to do that.

We always get 'DD is very quiet in the classroom and needs to participate more in discussion' from certain teacher's at parents' evenings and I always reply 'If DD is not speaking she's obviously not comfortable voicing her thoughts in your class, can you think of any strategies to get her more integrated into the classroom? Mr Bloggs says she always contributes, perhaps you could speak to him for some tips.' .

I think that you should work on ways to increase your DD's confidence speaking up in front of the class rather than blame the teacher. In the long run, the real, deep issue is how your DD can find that confidence.

Yes you need to work on yourDD's confidence to speak up but also highlight with the teacher that sarcasm isn't productive or appropriate

DorothyL re But it's not like she could happily join in the discussion but refuses to do so out of naughtiness/disinterest - she is genuinely listening and taking it in but her throat tightens at even the thought of putting her hand up, and by the time she's plucked up the courage things have moved on. It sounds like she has things she wants to say but takes time to think them through. I think GingerIvy has excellent advice.

And Boxdweller excellent advice.

It's important for kids to know there are many ways to join in and contribute, if the teacher is only providing the 'speak up in class' bullshit, the teacher (or system) is failing.

In life, no-one waits for anyone to speak up. Best to learn to do so while you are at school.

ThenLaterWhenItGotDark not meaning to be mean but I honestly can't quite fathom what you mean doesn't pull her weight during the English lesson.... what is that supposed to mean! All children are different, they all have different abilities. Maybe she won't do well in English, maybe she could do better, but she isn't pulling her weight on behalf of anyone else in the class surely.

And English at that age is a subject where maybe a music lesson should take second place anyway I would imagine the child has been given permission to go for music lesson during English lesson, so someone else had made the call on this. What makes English so much more important than music? I am guessing it is English literature, an art, what makes that overtake music (an art). And even if it were language, a talent like music could be very useful in the world outside school and the kids do lots and lots (all or almost all) of their classes in the English language.

Dorothy re Why can't some teachers just accept that some students are quiet? She answers when asked, she produces good class and homework, whymake her feel bad? I do wonder if it is because the system sets out a certain pattern for successes and expects children to attain in a certain way. This is all very sad and unproductive for kids.

Just for the record I was very shy and dyslexic at school and I struggled immensely at school. I now do loads and loads of things I never imagined possible but the desire to change came from me and had I wanted to remain quieter, that would have been fine too. One thing that never ever helped me was teachers embarrassing me, and 35 years later I can still remember the teacher who embarrassed me in geography by holding up my crappy exercise book where I had got very far behind!

Thank you so much for your post Greyhound, and all the other useful advice given by many posters!

Bobochic, you're right, but then in life you can choose a profession where you don't have to speak in public?

I don't know what interesting profession that would be, Dorothy. If your DD is clever she really needs to overcome her inhibitions sooner rather than later, or else many doors will close.

Really, there are no interesting professions where you don't have to speak publicly?

http://www.wisebread.com/the-10-best-high-paying-jobs-for-introverts

I really have no idea how to make such a fundamental change to your personality.

I think the teacher was out of order and you're well within your rights to mention it to her. She may not know how hard it is for a child to speak in class, how it might take years for them to feel confident to contribute, or to express themselves. For some people, it's just not in their ability to do this freely. She needs to understand it's not unwillingness on your daughter's part.

DS is the same, year 7, and I had similar comments from his form teacher recently. I replied with something like: he is fine, well behaved, diligent and making good grades, so he doesn't need to change. He has always been this way, it's simply his personality. I added that it would be great if school could encourage him, as a shy child, to feel comfortable enough to actively participate in class, and we will also encourage him.

I hated speaking up in class and am a shy introvert. I'm a teacher. The classroom is a particularly artificial situation and how you behave in one isn't going to define you for life.

Some pretty harsh comments here about a shy 13/14 year old. I think the teacher was pretty nasty, actually. I teach at a university and we still have students who find it really hard to contribute to class discussion - that doesn't mean at all that they 'don't pull their weight' - how ridiculous. They often contribute to a lovely, positive atmosphere by showing engaged interest when other students speak (as opposed to some of the more cocky, vocal ones who might exchange sarky glances or enjoy looking unimpressed). If they have made a clever comment or observation in a written assignment I'll say so, and attribute it to them. There are loads of ways in which a quiet person can contribute, and can be enabled to contribute, without being penalised for their personality. And often our quieter students have gained more confidence by the end of their degree - I don't imagine this would happen easily if they were being mocked or belittled though.

BoboChic there are a whole tun of professions where one does not need to speak out in front of 30 people!

Musician, researcher, journalist, investigator, author, dancer, jewellery maker, doctor, nurse, artist, landscape gardener.... I could go on.

Dorothy if you dd wants to change how she interacts with the world there are ways, some people have already mentioned some. Loads of things can build confidence and self esteem and help with shyness.... one things surely doesn't and that is being belittled, especially by someone in a position of authority.

DD gets the 'should contribute more verbally' a lot [was in a not-great tutor group last year, where it wasn't that pleasant to be a girl who knew the answers]. She is performing exceptionally highly in all subjects, but she finds it more comfortable / socially acceptable / less exposing to show this in written work.

In the parents' evening this year, I simply asked every teacher who mentioned it how they were helping DD to do this. The good ones had a plan ready, or could give examples of what they were already doing to overcome a difficulty that the school itself, by making that tutor group, created. The less good ones had no clue - they simply wanted DD to suddenly become (show-offly, as she would see it) voluble spontaneously.

DD is a dancer, and performs regularly on stage in solos and in groups. She's no shrinking violet. But specific circumstances - and a consciousness that she knows the answers more often than others do, and this is not necessarily a nice thing to make public - have meant that she doesn't show this in class. So 'not contributing in class' does not necessarily indicate a big problem for her future life - just a specific glitch in her current behaviour.

The teacher should not have been sacastic.

However, he/she can't win in the classroom. If they allow her to not contribute it really isn't good for her. Part of how we develop ideas is in discussing them, re-shaping them , turning them into words. However, if they ask her she will feel uncomfortable, there is likely to be a long pause which will make her feel worse, other children become impatient and the lesson will lose pace and impetus. That is how children become ignored and left behind.

But there are other ways of asking for a contribution - share an idea with a partner before telling the rest of the class, whole class write a quick note on a whiteboard, then holding it up, teacher selects some children to expand, giving the child notice that they will be asked to contribute soon, using the child's written work (read out) as a contribution rather than asking for a verbal one, using prepared speeches rather than allowing 'free for all', choosing speakers at random rather than accepting 'hands up', providing questions in advance so that everyone has time to think through an answer etc etc etc.

(I have taught a couple of selective mutes, as well as HEing DS who was at that point a selective mute - enabling a selective mute to make progress academically and to contribute to the class is entirely possible, so it should be possible to manage for the merely shy!)

As it is your d is just depending on others to have ideas. And express them

Well yes, she says herself she's not really an idea person... But give her a task and she will execute it diligently and well... Worth something as well?

It's just rather lazy of the teacher I think not to think of strategies