Anyone else disappointed with their state choices?

[DrTinkle]

It's all so bloody average around here. Schools seem to move from satisfactory to good, grades are average, bullying and low aspiration a problem. High performing kids do less well than they would at independents. No grammar schools in the area and the church school creams off most of the advantaged kids with parents who can commit to 7 years church or synagogue attendance. Everything is so oversubscribed and competitive around here, it's basically overpopulated.
We're utterly stuck living here for work and childcare reasons. I don't want DD who is bright and very capable to have the poor choices I had so faced with paying for 6 years of schooling which won't be easy.
Just a bit sad looking at Facebook friends kids going to grammars or well performing comps and thinking it just ain't fair. Anyone else care to vent?

We're a few years away from needing to think about this but are already worried because our local state secondaries are all dire and have been for years. If anything they're getting worse. We also don't have grammars.

There are a few better performing schools a bit further afield who take a small number of children based on aptitude tests so I think we'll be putting DS in for those, but then so will everyone else in the area who cares about their child's education.

We've decided we'll find a way to pay for private if the only alternative is the local comp.

Just to add an alternative perspective on this. I went to my local state comp. Inner city London. 30% GCSE pass rate.

I have 4 A grade A-levels and a first class degree from a RG university.

From the outside my secondary school probably looked shit. From the inside it was actually very good. Teachers who were really into teaching encouraging kids from less privileged backgrounds to aim higher and achieve well. Recognising that for some children a C grade is as much of an achievement as an A*. Not forcing everyone down the academic route if that wasn't what they were good at.

I don't think you can always tell what a school is like from the outside. More importantly the school I went to gave me a great group of friends from all backgrounds and the ability to stand up for myself when previously I had been a very shy, non-assertive child. I like to think that I am fairly open minded because of the school I went to.

I don't, personally, like the way that independent schools and very high-acievement state schools push academic achievement over everything else. My sister attended the Greycoat Hospital School which on paper looks fantastic but in reality has made her feel like she's there to push the grade average up for the school.

Just my two cents.

High-achieving state schools - sorry typing on my shitty phone!!

We are paying for an English tutor, 1 hr a week. It's good value for £25. I would pay for others if DS was struggling in other areas. The private school teachers also offer tutoring, so that could be worth a look if you don't think the state teachers are very good. Personally, I don't think there is much difference in the teaching. You pay for a better behaved cohort in a private school! Don't panic though. As long as your aspirations are high there is a good chance things will work out ok.
For what it's worth, most people don't live in an area with grammar schools, and our kids do just fine. But you need to pay attention to what is happening at school and be ready to step in.

The world is full of average.

High achieving isn't the be all and end all.

I hear your pain and in fact wonder if we live near each other.

The only non-selective school option for my kids is a school that just cancelled its 6th form as not enough pupils wanted to take A-levels, a DIRE school. If I were Jewish, I would have 2-3 very good options indeed.

Instead we shall sit for a few selective schools along with 2000 other kids, and failing that (as I don't have the strength to subject my child to hours of prep), we will go private..

poocatcherchampion - a child should have an opportunity to maximise their ability. If they are average, they should get at least average marks; if they are above average, their outcome should reflect that.
A school that doesn't even offer an academic 6th form is not going to give that.

We had the same thing, and I wasn't even going from ofsted ratings. Reports maybe, but more on all the other stuff that makes a good school. Excellent church school and an excellent comprehensive. And fuck all chance of getting a place at either. One that's actually ok, but not ideal for anyone above averagely bright. And then some crap ones. No state grammars, unless you go for an out of catchment place and then move house.
Paying independent fees just wasn't an option. Luckily for dd she's got a scholarship and bursary, but the competition for them round here is huge. So plenty of very bright kids, whether slightly less so, or even brighter but happened to have a bad day or get nervous in exams will be going off to schools that have fuck all intention of catering to them. Dd has one friend she met at a science geek local activity, who is gifted by anyones standards, but less confident than dd when it comes to stuff like exams/ interviews. Unless the council rehome them in catchment of the decent school or the half decent one, she'll spend the next 5 years at a school slated for failing anyone above average, let alone a child who is actually gifted. Poverty trap in action.

Floozy - my state school I refer to above had no sixth form. I went elsewhere for my A levels.

IMO if your parents encourage education and are supportive you tend to do quite well regardless of where you are.

For balance, I also had a friend who attended a top London Indpendent for her A levels and was so miserable there she dropped out and returned to a state school to finish them off.

It completely depends on the individual.

Totally in every way sadly. I have always wanted to support my local school and have sent my kids there rather than bus them out to other schools. Feel like I made a big mistake now.

maybe that's reassuring to hear. But the high achievers at these state schools are definitely not doing as well as the high achieving cohort at the in area independents or the out of area grammars. So why is this, I expect it's less good teaching (Ofsted reports suggest high achievers not catered for), or distracting behaviour. Also they have high staff turnover consistently which also concerns me (occasionally one of those super heads is brought in but they seem to leave after a couple of years). FWIW I went to a 'rough' school where you got your head kicked in for doing well academically and under performed to survive so am sensitive to not putting DD through the same (I have to keep thinking it must be better nowadays).

Why is that Lucy?

We moved here specifically for the school (only one in catchment area) which had/has glowing Ofsted reports - but I am incredibly disappointed with it, the expectations seem so low - minimal homework - my DS got 51% in a recent maths test and says that is above average and he is in the top set ??? I laugh when people say their children have too much homework - my DS's school is like a holiday camp .

Very limited after school/sports opportunities.

We pay for a private tutor.

Perhaps it is just my expectations as talking to other parents and they don't seem too concerned. We won't change schools now, due to moving around he has already been to 3 primary schools.

None of the state schools near me have 6th forms, it's just the norm in my region.
Unfortunately my catchment secondary school is not very good at all and I didn't want it for my very able DS. I do expect that he could have done well academically there or at any other state school based on his natural ability but I wanted him in a school with lots of peers of similar ability as he had spent his whole primary school life trying to dumb himself down to fit in socially.
We were lucky, DS sat the exam for an excellent out of area state grammar and was offered a place. He also sat exams for three academic independent schools and was offered a place with huge bursaries from all three. He chose the school which he liked the most.

OP - do you have any independent schools locally and would your income level qualify you for a bursary?

Tinkle look it's a really personal choice and you know your DD best.

In my opinion - and it is only my opinion - I would rather my DC got a couple less A*s but went to a school where there was a cross-section of society. I feel that makes for more well-rounded individuals. From what I know of independent schools, they tend to prize academics over everything else, put intense pressure on their students and also instil this whole 'competitive' attitude in them that I don't, personally, like.

Maybe this is fine if your DC wants to go into the City or something equally high pressured and competitive. But I want my own DC to have the choice to do something non-academic as well as academic, if that's what they want.

I don't know if I've explained myself very well, and apologies if I've offended anyone who's chosen to go private. Like I said - it's an individual choice.

That's so sad Lurked. Dd has a friend like that, her parents are uninformed and low aspirations (as mine were) and she'll be sent to the local school, which is the worst one around, because it's close and they won't think to look at any others. This is the girl who along with Dd won the inter schools maths competition and is really clever. Our catchment school is the same one and Dd could easily end up there too unless we pay.

loobrush we earn too much to qualify. So we'd be the ones really stretching ourselves to afford fees but we can manage. Just depressing to think if we could move elsewhere there would be other options.

I should clarify my point on the 6th form. This is not an area that has 6th form colleges but rather kids stay on at their school, probably because of the competition to get in. To move to a good school for A levels requires As in your GCSEs which is hard to get in a poor school.

The competition for private options is almost as bad though around here.

It's basically just overcrowded in this part of the country.

Same Fan, you are within London and commuter distance areas I expect. It's difficult to compare GCSE results with independents but when I looked at this years stats, for the comp high achievers only 70% were where they should be for English and 80% for Maths (bearing in mind no grammar access AT ALL as grammars out of area also massively oversubscribed and have strict catchments) the comps will have a high number of potential high achievers. The local indie has 99.4% A-B results for GCSE with nearly 70% at A. So it seems a no brainier that if you're bright you'll be advantaged at the indie, for whatever reason.

Pressed send too soon. Maybe that reason is the type of parents who can afford indie are more invested in supporting their children but I don't think that's the whole picture and have first hand experience how distracting it can be at a school where so many of the resources are aimed or lost at attempting to control poor behaviour.

maybe I don't discount your experience but it relies a lot on the attitude of the school. Dds primary isn't exactly known for its high achieving cohorts or overall results. However like your school caters to everyone. And I agree neither will be unique.
However not all schools have that attitude. I got excellent grades at my shit hole, low achievement comprehensive. It had fuck all to do with them though. I spent my school years bored, disruptive, and mainly I learnt education sucked and no effort was ever required. Not really what I want my dd to learn. Its the experience and continuity of her love of learning I'm after, not grades. I also escaped the usual hell any a* student got at my school, partly through being confident and sporty. But mainly because I had the rep from early on of being anything but teachers pet. Not so pleasant for other personalities and better attitudes though. Kids that sat quietly bored and got their homework right got mildly bullied, enthusiastic ones got slaughtered. As they do now at some.

Dr tinkle is right
The A level results at our local school are ok but they are all in soft subjects such as business studies.
As a result students go mediocre to poor universities.
From my mum, who is a secondary school teacher, just retiring now, it is sad but there is a lack of discipline for low grade disruption particularly mobile phones and gossiping.
In the end it is a teachers fault but they get so much abuse, from kids and parents, some of them give up - like my mum has.
I think many parents are unaware until it is too late. In my opinion it is the average children who lose out the most. The top ones will manage ok whatever.

I think inner city schools sometimes do better by their high achievers as they have had additional funding over the years for higher FSM and non English speaking intake. Plus I have observed immigrant families tend to take education seriously. Our schools are white and working class and unfortunately that means low aspirations and shit funding.

Tinkle yes I expect so. My school was overwhelmingly non-white - I was one of only five white pupils in my year. Asian families in particular massively encourage educational achievement, although IME they consider maths and science to be the most important.

I live in an 11 plus area, bordering another 11 plus area with a number of local high performing private schools. However, I have lived in this area for quite some years so I know parents with DCs in most of these schools. Believe me, the stats. on a piece of paper do not give the full picture and the OFSTED reports are nothing short of useless.

I've lost count of the number of times people have told me the school their DCs are at is not as good as it seems in terms of the quality of teaching and the level of learning support. Yes they all do quite well for the very top end of the academic ability scale, but those children who do well at these schools don't need the same level of learning support as those with lower academic abilities. For ability levels below the very top end, not so good. One very popular school in the area is on a four year decline in GCSE results with a less popular one on a four year upward trend in GCSE results. Interestingly the main change at these schools is the ability intake.

As it is an 11 plus area an extremely high number of children have private tutors from reception upwards in both the private and state schools. There is a lot of movement after year 2, whereby parents move their children into preps. to groom them for the 11 plus exam (a number of these parents continue to use tutors also). Those same children will then have the fall back option of a private school if they don't get their preferred academically selective state school.

One point to note here, in some areas where state schools appear better or there are academically selective schools, you will still need to be able to afford a private prep., a massive mortgage to fall into catchment, private tutors or the cost of the materials to tutor yourself. Yes some do get by without this cost but the numbers of such are very, very low.

Something that might be of interest to you is the DfE performance tables. This gives a clearer picture of how a school performs in relation to the various ability levels.

Just because a school gets good results it doesn't necessarily mean the teachers and management team are better than at other schools. It could be that the actual intake is more capable of performing with less support and guidance from the actual school due to high academic ability, use of private tutors and significant levels of extra support and interest in academic performance from parents.