GCSE Results Not Great and Causing A Level Maths Rethink (DS not happy)

[OrchardDweller]

DS really wants to be an engineer but he got a B in his iGCSE and the Maths department are (still) concerned that he won't be able to achieve an A level in the subject. I think they may be right - statistics back them up but he is determined to take it. His results were generally disappointing and not what were expected.

If he can't take Maths then he can't read engineering at university. Does anyone know of similar courses at University that don't require Maths A Level. He's taking Physics, Economics and DT as well. Perhaps he'd be better looking at apprenticeships? What I'm concerned about (amongst everything else) is that he'll take Maths to AS and then we could have disaster on our hands this time next year if it doesn't go well.

Do his teachers think he should get his paper remarked?

IME it is worth at least having the conversation because the standard of marking is so variable.

DD had one of her GCSE papers remarked and her grade went up from a B to an A with an increase of 12 marks.

Oxford Brookes do a BSC in Mechanical Engineering which doesnt require maths,just a science subject.
The only problem i see is that physics without maths is not encouraged in a lot of schools.

He was getting As in his past paper practices but they were closer to the B boundary than the A* boundary. I don't think it's the result of the iGCSE they are concerned about but his ability. He's not great in exams. They've worked with him for three years now and I've asked for a definite yes/no from them rather than we're not sure.

If it was an essay subject you could work around it but the thing with Maths is either it's right or it's wrong! I'm just trying to seeing what his options could be if he's not going to make it with Maths. Turning to wisdom on here!

Unless you get A* maths in my boys' school you don't do A level maths. A level maths is very hard unless it is really what you are into. Also economics is probably out at the best unviersities if you don't do maths A level.

I am not sure an apprenticeship is best but is there some other aspect of engineering he could do without an engineering degree?

As brufin says Oxford B (ex poly) and that kind of place might not be so bothered but then you need to look at job prospects thereafter in case employers recruit by institution's status.

Some people do turn it around. We just noticed my daughter got B in English lit GCSE a good few years ago when her brothers got the results out to compare theirs this week. She has slight dyslexia. Yet she got A in the A level (in the days before A*) and is a high paid city lawyer who uses English at a high level every day so people do change at different life stages.

If his GCSEs are poor overall that might generally affect his university entrance chances however. Or may be he just didn't work. One of my sons who got mostly A and A* said he would have been happy with Cs all round and that his lack of work should have led to Cs (although I suspect he was just teasing us!)

From what i have seen with 2 dc doing maths A levels. Maths is a lot of practise, practise and more practise etc. Ds is going to uni next month to take a Beng in mechanical engineering and he has a maths test timetabled into his first week despite needing A at A level to get in.
As i said above there may be the Bsc route

His algebra is the most important factor in whether he'll struggle at A-level. Is he good at manipulating expressions, solving complicated quadratic equations, that sort of thing? If he missed his A at GCSE because he failed at data handling or geometry but got a good score for algebra, then A-level could still be possible, but he would need to be prepared to put a shed load of work in from today to get himself up to speed, and some intensive tutoring would be best.

It's really hard to know what to advise, I've seen similar students desperate (or their parents desperate) to take maths a-level get a U at AS - but they weren't necessarily pushing and pushing for extra help. I've also seen a student with a B go on to get a C at A-level, so it's not impossible, just unlikely.

If he is determined to take it, then what is he doing about it? Has he gone online and accessed resources? There are "bridging the gap to A-level" videos and sites out there he would find useful. If he is reluctant to do that, then I'd say it's a non-starter.

I think you would know by January if there's any hope. Could he take it with a view to dropping it if he can't cope?

One of my dc just got a U in AS C2 38/100. Got 98 UMS in Maths Gcse last year (A) & got an A in S1. Also got As in 10 other GCSEs. It is hard (or they just didn't do enough bloody work).

The course at Oxford Brookes is interesting as it is is computer based design and hence the need for Maths appears to be reduced although it is still one of the preferred subjects. With engineering you also have to consider that, when doing a BEng or BSc course, it takes longer to be a Chartered Engineer, in comparison to an MEng graduate, but is preparation for Incorporated Engineer, the lower form of qualified engineer status. This course seems to lead to more of a 'back room computer design' employee function. I would certainly check out whether it has a good track record with employers because it is a way into a form of engineering without maths but it may not be attractive to the best employers as it is not MEng.

My DH is a Chartered Civil Engineer (FICE) (plus a few other engineering Fellowships) and is a consulting engineer. It would be unthinkable for them to employ anyone without A level Maths and at least BEng. Just be careful regarding future career prospects.

And although people go on about stem subjects I know a good few scientists/engineers who requalify as lawyers doing patent etc law because they want much higher pay.

If you are a Chartered Engineer working in the right sector you will get paid well. Graduate starting salaries are very good and law jobs not so easy to get these days because of huge competition. Also patent lawyers are not likely to be civil or structural, but would probably be design engineers. As there are not so many good engineers about, salaries are pretty good at the moment for the right people. However, one without Maths would not be top of the tree, in my view.

There are a lot of engineering type apprenticeships where they don't need high marks at math A-level. Boat building & plane maintenance locally, for instance.

I haven't looked at the Oxford Brooks course, but would suggest your DS ensures the course is accredited by the Engineering institutions eg IMechE if he is looking for a career in Engineering.
Both of my DS are studying Engineering and the well respected universities are looking for a Grade A in Maths A level, then there is lots of additional harder maths to learn once you start. So you really need to understand and love maths.
The good news is that Engineering graduates are well regarded & graduate starting salaries are very respectable
Alternatively your DS could look at courses that are product design based & don't require A level maths

Thank you everyone for your help and advice. After a long and painful week, DS has now accepted that Engineering at University is not a choice and that his future lies with a different degree. We had a detailed and heartfelt discussion with his school and have come to an agreement on his A levels (which don't include Maths ...) which he is now happy with!

Manchester University offers 2 routes for economics - the BA doesn't require A level maths.

Listen to the Radio 4 podcast about Chris Toumouzu (apologies if it is spelt incorrectly). He is an eminent professor at Imperial College with an impressive CV. His story is quite inspirational and the the way he ended up in engineering is quite motivational - it may encourage your son that all is not lost.

Great podcast - thank you!