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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

state comprehensive secondary schools stretching able pupils - opinions?

217 replies

PastSellByDate · 12/03/2015 09:38

Hi all

DD1 is happily selted into her secondary comprehensive which is rated 'GOOD' by OFSTED.

In Year 7 all classes are mixed ability. Gradually from Year 8 they start to stream - most classes in Year 9 are by ability.

So far I've had some niggles (little or no maths homework coming home - everyone giving the same worksheet and the homework is for pupils to finish the worksheet, but DD1 finishes in class 95% of the time. DD1 scored Nc L6 at KS2 SATs). We have raised this with the teacher and our solution has been to do more at home.

Last week there were a slew of reports in the press about secondary schools failing to stretch their most able: www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22873257 - based on the second OFSTED repoert into progress of pupils achieving NC L5+ at KS2 SATs in English or Maths in secondary (www.gov.uk/government/news/schools-not-doing-enough-to-support-most-able-students).

It's quite clear that if you are in a miniority of bright pupils at a state comprehensive your chances of going on to achieve an A/A* at GCSE are much lower (ca. 28% in Math if

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PastSellByDate · 14/03/2015 20:18

Thanks all & especially ScottishProf for last ideas.

Have got to make dinner now - DD1/ DH/ DD2 all rebelling and ordering me off MN.

The cheek!

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noblegiraffe · 14/03/2015 20:19

Which of those are aimed at KS3 students interested specifically in maths, not? I couldn't see any.

PastSellByDate · 15/03/2015 08:18

Not:

I remember you have two names because I clearly remember a recent feed where you posted to me under both names and got me seriously confused. I find it odd that you go by two names and post with both on the same feeds - kind of pathologically need to generate support for your views I guess.

Look I appreciate the suggestions & Ragged's regarding UoB. Some don't apply because linked to A2B scheme (widening Access gov't initiative) which rules us out as university educated parents. Others don't apply because they're further down the road (more KS4+).

I will say that taster days ARE NOT LEARNING OPPORTUNITIES FOR KS3/ KS4 pupils. They really are advertising; recruitment days only intended to help pupils/ parents prior to filling in UCAS forms make final decisions on which courses to list - it really is equivalent to a primary/ secondary school open morning/ evening. Don't just judge a Uni by their open day schpeel - well rehersed and everything polished down and everyone on best behaviour. Go and have a look - but also do research (student satisfaction surveys/ employability post degree/ outside activity options/ location/ student life/ etc....)

In terms of a King Edward grammar school being the solution - well I have to say I have my doubts. I suppose it is the opposite problem - too much pressure vs. too little (in just one area for us - maths).

I suspect having had many suggestions there's more we can do at home in this one little area (which is her keen interest) - otherwise she's extremely happy there & workload is very manageable allowing DD1 time for all her activities (she's maintained all clubs outside of school from primary + joined several at new secondary & also made county sport team & competes). I know grammar school friends are dropping activities/ staying at home to work instead of going out with family at weekend/ etc... to keep up and think that is a shame at age 11/12.

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Notinaminutenow · 15/03/2015 12:08

The Birmingham Popular Mathematics Lectures are open to all members of the public and the University who are interested in the study of Mathematics. They are particularly suitable those studying Mathematics at A Level and we also welcome advanced GCSE students. Young people are welcome on their own, with parents or with a school group. The lectures are free of charge and there is no need to register.

Well noble I think even ks3 students qualify as both "members of the public" and "those interested in the study of mathematics". They don't turn you away if you're a super-able y7!

past Sides splitting here!

I suspect your reservations about grammar schools in Birmingham surfaced around the same time your DD didn't get into one!

We all think our children are bloody geniuses, we're programmed to, just like we think our children are the most beautiful and talented creatures that roam the earth. It's always harder to accept that they, like most of us, are average or just above average and that they progress and do well through hard work and application and not some innate gift. Half my son's (comprehensive school) y7 class are working at L7 maths - the level you seem to think makes your child gifted. My DS is not - he's quite ordinary in a delightfully extraordinary way. None of his peers are viewed as especially gifted by their maths teacher but they work very hard and he encourages them to think.

I am Raisin a year 7. (do you see what I did there? Must be my pathological need for support!) If he gets A in 4 years time it will be because he* wants to do the work it will involve! not because I am hovering over him, pigeon-holing him, pressurising him.

noblegiraffe · 15/03/2015 12:17

Your able KS3 student is neither studying A-level, nor an advanced GCSE student. I've been to popular maths lectures aimed at this level, with both A-level and top GCSE students, not, and I wouldn't recommend them for an 11 year old.

TalkinPeace · 15/03/2015 12:20

I was at a big University STEM event yesterday.

One of the local comps had brought their science project stall.
THAT was stretching the kids as they had to compete for attention against world leading research teams.
By the sound of it the kids (and their teacher) had a fantastic day.

ragged · 15/03/2015 13:02

Not sure if science research events really what PSBD wanted. She seemed to clarify that only interested in math extension not so bothered about science.

Does your DD go on mymath for homework, PSBD? DD normally ends up shrieking at it a fair bit. Certainly challenges her (she got L6 math in y6 too).

DD's school sent a team to the UKMT (came 19th out of 23). DD happy to have a day out with mates & Sir bought them all McDonald's milkshakes on way home. Sometimes extension is just about the ambition & aspiration not what they achieve or especially do.

PastSellByDate · 15/03/2015 13:08

Not:

I suspect your reservations about grammar schools in Birmingham surfaced around the same time your DD didn't get into one!

No genuinely wanted to keep DD1 on waiting list but she was dead against it and DH firmly believe better big fish in small pond than struggling minnow at sea.

I'm a guest in this country - it isn't my system - we have honour streams in US - so brighter students from 6th grade = UK Y7 are invited to join honour stream (their choice) and from high school (= UK Y11- Y13) it's college prep - so higher level work in preparation for university bound kids. Private school in my state is rare - and mainly for catholics or jewish.

DD2 currently preparing for 11+ and we fully support her decision to do so. In both cases going for 11+ has been their decision.

Genuinely thought 3 DCs I know very well who went to y7 at King Edward grammars would be ridiculously happy and with bragging parents about their great times there - all three are pretty miserable & parents very concerned (two ringing me a lot and asking about DD1s state school). One is contemplating quitting - will decide over Easter having been persuaded by parents to give it one more term. Very competitive & catty environment - and I fear that doesn't suit every child.

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PastSellByDate · 15/03/2015 14:18

Not

As a parent reading They are particularly suitable those studying Mathematics at A Level regarding mathematics lectures at UoB you can forgive me for thinking great idea in a few years - maybe at 16/17 - but maybe a bit much for DD1 just now in Y7.

DD1 is doing well - officially would be classed as able - but I have never been told that as such nor has the school informed me she's G&T. She's an ordinary kid that wants to do more - in my book. I think your maths standards for this age group in England are pretty low by international standards.

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PastSellByDate · 15/03/2015 14:20

Talk:

DD1 has been to science fairs and is in science club - she has been to public talks at UoB community days in past (which are more geared for KS2/KS3 kids). We also take her to Think Tank her in Brum and have been to Science Museum in London.

BBC science programming is also a wonderful source of information as is Nat Geo Kids.

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swingofthings · 15/03/2015 16:58

A lot of responses, but just to say that I have faced the exact same questions with both my DS.

Similar situation, local comprehensive rated 'good' by OFSTED, but I became concerned when I saw what DS1 was doing in Y7. They also were not streamed until Y8. I didn't get the chance to meet with the teacher until February time and was prepared to expressed my concern. I was surprised to see how receptive she was and said that she had noticed DS was expectional talented and had started giving him additional work after class. I expected her to say this to appease me, but I was very glad that she kept to her words and started giving DS quite a bit of attention in class, making sure he had additional work each time he was finished with normal work. This continued in Y8 and Y9 and now in year 10, he is expected a strong A* at GCSE, so I don't think he missed out from their system.

DS is in the same situation, got level 6B at SATS and now having to redo a lot of what he did last year, but again, he must somehow be challenged enough as assessed as a 7a last week.

I would advise to make sure you speak with the teacher. My view is that it is not so much the top achievers who are losing out but those slightly below, who are still very able, but not enough that it is obvious to the teacher.

Notinaminutenow · 15/03/2015 19:56

DS is in the same situation, got level 6B at SATS and now having to redo a lot of what he did last year, but again, he must somehow be challenged enough as assessed as a 7a last week.

You can get too hung up on levels you know. My DS's best friend is G&T in languages so working at a level considerably in advance of his peers, yet he couldn't order himself a drink and a sandwich last week on a trip to a French cafe. They haven't been taught that yet.....

He can say that he hates Maths and loves Science though, and at a push he could give an e-fit description of a suspect to the police!

LL12 · 16/03/2015 09:47

This is a real worry for me, in the county I like in we have the 11plus.
Since our LA changed the test a couple of years ago it has been found (as my dd school and other schools have stated) that a many of their most able students that were not tutored and already working at Grammar school level are being given some of the lowest scores in the test.
The Sec schools are pleased as they will now have a lot more 'able' students that will push up their results, providing they push these students.
Somebody made a comment saying " Was this the LEA's was of pushing up the Sec school results", to be honest it really would not surprise me, there are too many students this has happened to that have now had their confidence destroyed and will be having to attend the 'wrong' school.
Many parents now can only pray that their children will be pushed and given the same opportunities as those in the grammar schools.

PiqueABoo · 16/03/2015 11:51

Late, lengthy opinion which is mostly letting off steam. I usually have my finger on this pulse, but have been pre-occupied elsewhere so thanks for the thread & link @PSBD.

I didn't appreciate how well-off we were at primary. Based on my experience Mr Wilshaw was quite correct to say (in their annual report) that the primary sector has upped their game, but secondary sector has not. The index of findings in this new 'most able' report is a perfect fit for a secondary comp which is yet another Ofsted 'Good' and not in a challenging area of the country.

Transition was dire. It's also March now and for the most part we still don't have a clue how DD is rated or performing in most subjects. Yes we eventually got levels and targets for all subjects in January, but it was a formula around KS2 SATs (plus two sub-levels to make the target) and we were supposed to treat that junk as if it were a grave and serious teacher assessment. Worse a couple of DD's teachers don't appear to know how to do credible assessment.

Perhaps it will be better when they set all the academic subjects in Y8 and gradually edge towards GCSEs, but in Y7 they only set maths and [::suprise::] that is one of the sunny spots where her passion for the subject is undiminished. It varies by subject e.g. French seem fine and for that matter so does DT, but mixed-ability lowest common denominator fluffy accessible English is doing a quite effective job of suppressing and 'normalising' the highers i.e. tall poppies and chop, chop, chop...

There is no modest way to say this: DD has her flaws, but for the most part she is a natural top of the range model. It's also difficult to coherently explain this, but I think her extreme gives me a good place to stand and survey the landscape. We inevitably have difficulties because the system isn't designed for either end of the ability spectrum, but I certainly don't believe the highers, approximately that L5+ bunch, have been very well served in this school this year.

I hope this latest report improves matters, however I had the same hopes for the original 'most able' report. Ditto for the related Sutton report and ditto for the Ofsted inspection guidance which acquired some quite explicit new text around these areas well ahead of this academic year i.e. surely they would all read that and start running around trying to tick those boxes the same way they do for all the other Ofsted tick-boxes?

I suppose we could argue that the secondary scale means there is more inertia than primary, but several years have gone by now and there is no mileage left in some of the common excuses. So it looks like some secondary schools have to be noisily singled out and dramatically downgraded specifically for weaknesses in this area in order to get the others to sit-up and do something instead of paying yet more lip-service to it (I'm looking directly at SLTs and governors).

On one hand I think Ofsted are part of the problem and probably should have been scrapped, but it looks like we do need them for this. I now want Ofsted to deliver their promise of a 'sharp focus' on this area and I want it to be razor-sharp.

notquiteruralbliss · 17/03/2015 20:43

From my experience, with 4 somewhat quirky x DCs well into the gifted range (eldest was assessed by ed psychologist at the one in 10,000 level), I would say that school 'stretching' DCs by pushing them through the levels is far less important than a school providing an inclusive environment where they feel valued for who they are (not just for their clock speed). We have used a variety of schools ( from top of the range private schools to inner London comps) and honestly, the least important thing has been academic results.

PastSellByDate · 19/03/2015 10:45

Notquite:

I do seriously take on board your points about social happiness & inclusive environment. DD1 is at a Birmingham school, so very culturally diverse environment - which we relish as well. She's incredibly happy there - so that's all a great thing and we're pleased.

but...

are you saying you don't worry about GCSE grades at all?

I don't have all data - but just going on what the school maths teachers have said - they get about 1 in 3 pupils coming in at NC L5+ on KS2 SATs to A/A* at GCSE. At first this was presented with pride - i.e. 'Aren't we jolly good' - but with a bit of research and now this OFSTED report I begin to realise this isn't such a 'hot' result.

Now DD1 may be that 1 in 3 that achieve A/A* at GCSE. That will go forward to UCAS forms and all will be well in terms of her dreams of being an engineer/ mathematician/ scientist - depends on the day (engineer usually wins out).

I'm just a Mum - rapidly reaching the limits of what I can do at home to support DD1 in maths. I am dependent on the school.

I get the point you're making - trust the school.

But if you've seen my posts in primary talk - you'll know having 'trusted the school' before it didn't go so well - so you will forgive me for being seriously worried that we're back to a similar situation of doing only what is required (mediocrity in other words) and if you want to do more (i.e. achieve A/A*) you'd best do it yourself at home.

The school aren't wrong - officially they only have to get a NC L5 pupil to B to be 'doing their job'. There is no benefit to them in putting the effort into getting them to an A, let alone A. Getting 1/3 of that more able cohort to A/A - which is what the school claim they are achieving and what OFSTED says generally happens at state schools - is considered incredibly good by Birmingham secondary state school standards. So why do more? especially as it only benefits a dozen or so pupils.

But I hope you can forgive me for worrying that if that's the attitude (and I don't totally know/ believe it is - but I'm frightened it might be) what does that mean for my DD1's aspirations?

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Springisontheway · 19/03/2015 11:54

I think you've figured it out for yourself. You can't leave it to the school. Everyone has different standards. The schools standards don't match yours.

What you described in your threads about primary school very match up with my own experience. What you describe in secondary sounds very much like our local comp. Not a terrible place, but local parents damn it with faint praise. It's not failing, but it's not setting out to "set the world on fire." It's not excellent for academic kids, and it's not trying to be. No one is pressuring it to improve, and the few parents who do express dissatisfaction are seen as being "up themselves," or deluded about what their DC can achieve.

I think you just want more or something different from what the system is designed to deliver for children. Sadly, I think you are left to your own devices. On the up side, there are a lot of interesting links from posters who seem to be very clued up.

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