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Original poster

The Politics of Grammar Schools

705 replies

GiftedPhoenix · 30/11/2014 10:08

I thought some mumsnet readers would be interested in my latest post, which is about grammar schools, especially their record in admitting high-attaining children from disadvantaged backgrounds.

giftedphoenix.wordpress.com/2014/11/27/the-politics-of-selection-grammar-schools-and-disadvantage/

The selection issue has been bubbling away in the media and this looks set to continue next week, as the Conservatives come under increased pressure from within their own party to include a commitment to new grammar schools in the Tory Election manifesto.

I wanted to explore what progress our remaining 163 grammar schools are making towards 'fair access', so providing a benchmark against which to judge political claims that they might be engines of social mobility. I'm not concerned with research on their historical record in this respect, but with evidence of recent reform.

OP posts:
TalkinPeace · 06/12/2014 17:36

TBH I'd never considered Grammar schools to be anything other than a historic anachronism till I joined MN and saw all the frothing

Private school I accept as it is impossible to abolish.

Selective state schools are fair game - especially those that result in silo mentality

The number of threads on the MN boards not about Comps is because most Comp area parents are happy with their lot
We do not all use our nearest comp, but we do know that the schools have similar approaches and no stress of entrance exams

LePetitMarseillais · 06/12/2014 17:41

Um most of the grammar frothing is from you and Hak.

You point out 80% of parents are happy with their comp so frankly I don't see the need for the continual grammar hate.You like your school,we like ours- no problemo as far as I can see

jeee · 06/12/2014 17:42

Living in Kent the Grammar School debate is very much a live issue - it's something that is regularly discussed at the school gates.

When I hear someone describing the 'wonderful' grammar system, I want them to hear the description given by a friend about their daughter's reaction to failing the test: "she screamed like a wounded animal". No matter how much we try to protect our children from the pressures of the test, we can't - the children are as likely to talk about the Kent Test as their parents.

Hakluyt · 06/12/2014 17:43

"Um most of the grammar frothing is from you and Hak.

You point out 80% of parents are happy with their comp so frankly I don't see the need for the continual grammar hate.You like your school,we like ours- no problemo as far as I can see"

No frothing. And those of us in wholly selective areas do not have a comprehensive option. And it's not grammar schools I hate. That would be silly. It's selective education.

MillyMollyMama · 06/12/2014 18:15

The reason UKIP want them back is because they are pushing a false dream - than anyone who is mildly bright could get to a grammar school if there were more of them. A lot of people who are older are won over by this argument because they have been told that when there were lots of grammar schools, ordinary people's children could go to one. Mostly that was untrue but it suits this particular political party. Lots of people still believe their children can get to a grammar school and pay thousands of pounds for tutoring of their children who still don't get a place. But at least they has a dream!!!

portico · 06/12/2014 18:30

I am not too bothered about social mobility. Grammars are a surefire gilt edged education that wl increases one' s chances go getting a top degree from a top university - leading to a top job in top companies. Grammars are all about meritocracy. The biggest travesty was their idelogically drivenculling by Crossland, williams and then thatcher. I live in a marginal constituency. Whoever advocates grammar schools will get my vote.

portico · 06/12/2014 18:34

Sorry for typos. Prescriptive text on my phone is fucked.

Bonsoir · 06/12/2014 18:44

MillyMollyMama - one of my aunts went to a grammar school in the 1950s (her sister went to Benenden and her three brothers to Lancing). Her grammar school was full of "ordinary girls". I and two of my cousins went to a grammar school in the 1970s - the one that was the top performing grammar in the locality then and a super selective now. I can assure you that it was full of "ordinary girls", if by "ordinary girls" we mean girls who lived in council houses or small terraced homes, had FSM, free uniforms, no family car and had never been on holiday.

Hakluyt · 06/12/2014 18:46

Portico- you've gone too far now. "Top job in top company" Grin. You are obviously taking the piss. Shame. I thought you were for real. I though the other honest poster taking the piss- but I think she is, amazingly, actually for real!

stn24 · 06/12/2014 18:53

Recent studies show they do not improve social mobility because there aren't enough of them and they aren't spread out enough.

If someone have access to all the raise online data, maybe they can look at the number of kids that make more than expected progress so then the "able kids will achieve whenever they are" statement can be tested fully :)

portico · 06/12/2014 19:03

No hakluyt. I am not taking the piss. I am not pushing my kids into grammar school because it is a great school. It is a springboard for better things. Why else have I pursued this so relentlessly.

portico · 06/12/2014 19:04

No hakluyt. I am not taking the piss. I am not pushing my kids into grammar school because it is a great school. It is a springboard for better things. Why else have I pursued this so relentlessly.

TalkinPeace · 06/12/2014 19:16

same reason people use Public school : the results are no better than that same bright supported kid at a comp
but the open doors are in a different league

TheWordFactory · 06/12/2014 19:22

Tbh talkin a fair amount of public school using parents, would be able to avail themselves of all that shizzle wherever they sent their DC to school.

The cultural capital is already there!

It's a whole heap of other stuff that's the driver, I think.

MillyMollyMama · 06/12/2014 19:29

My grammar was not full of ordinary pupils by any means. A handful from a council house, rare now of course because they have been sold off, nearly everyone had a car and everyone, bar me, had a holiday. We were farmers so no such luxury as a holiday. If your GS was full of ordinary people then, I bet it isn't now!

Mehitabel6 · 06/12/2014 19:36

Since DS has a physics degree from a top university and a great job from a comprehensive I can't see why he needed a grammar. DS 2 didn't go to a top university but he went to his first choice (he only put 3 on his UCAS form, he was so fussy) - he has a job with a top company.
There was nothing about mediocracy at the comprehensive - there were no grammar schools- they were the same children who would have gone to a grammar ( they just had all children under the same roof- what a terrible thought!!) for some weird reason having all abilities is thought to change children and make for mediocracy - I wonder how I have missed it!

Mehitabel6 · 06/12/2014 19:38

The comprehensive was a springboard for better things- I have the advantage of knowing it worked and is true! They have all reached the 'better things'.

LePetitMarseillais · 06/12/2014 19:59

Sorry I can't on my hands and listen to this claptrap anymore there are hoards of comps that are most certainly not springboards for better things.

Utterly sick of posters with kids fortunate enough to be in the better comps inferring that they're all the same and because their kids did ok others have to follow suit.

They don't,parents are at perfect liberty to do what is best for their own dc.

gardenfeature · 06/12/2014 20:57

If someone is in favour of the Grammar School "system" then they MUST be equally happy for their DCs to attend a Grammar or Secondary Modern. If not then how can they be in favour of the GS system? So, rather than campaign for the Grammar... campaign for the Secondary Modern!

And a question... where are the G&T top 1% Oxbridge level students to go if they are only G&T in one area? The brilliant mathematician who is shite at English? The brilliant student with dyslexia who is shite at maths? They will fail their 11+ but the relatively mediocre top 25% all-rounder will pass. These wonky G&T kids need challenging top sets and lower average sets. They can therefore only be catered for in a Comp with the full range of abilities.

Hakluyt · 06/12/2014 21:03

Nobody is saying what all comprehensives are the same.

But I sure as hell know that my dd's grammar school wasn't a "springboard for better things"- because she and her peers already had that springboard- the privilege they were born to gave them that. And my ds has the same spring board- because he was born into the same family. His secondary modern school will do the best it can. And it does try very hard. But most of his classmates and their parents just don't have the life experience to give them the springboard. And the school can only do so much. The kids don't aspire to anything beyond the local university- because they have only seen people go there. And they were told when they were 10 that they were in the group that didn't aspire to, say, Russell Group, because the ones that did went to grammar school. It's disgusting.

TalkinPeace · 06/12/2014 21:04

Wordfactory
You are very right.

Those of a certain background waft their children into top schools and then waft them back out into the well connected lifestyle

most of the MN posts about such schools actually come from what we at my primary school called the nouveau - who had come into money within the last 200 years

which is also why, sadly, much of your outreach work is doomed because the children of families without savoir faire will not be able to make use of the non academic aspects of top 200 Unis

BUT
Accepting that those who can pay, always will

makes me even more certain that those who want it should HAVE to cough the cash rather than sharp elbow the less connected into halfway house taxpayer funded schools
IYSWIM

Blu · 06/12/2014 21:05

LePetit, you did not answer my question about how long ago you went to school, to a bad comp.

there are not 'hoards' of comps so bad that they are failing to launch young people into high flying futures. However, if your local catchment comp is one that is failing, and failing young people, then that is the one that matters and one bad school too many.

You know there are bad grammars? Grammars in parts of Kent with a below average VA score? Therefore failing their pupils.

If schools are bad, it is the school that is bad.

Mehitabel6 · 06/12/2014 21:20

I agree gardenfeature.
If the comprehensives are bad in your area,LePetit, I can't see how a grammar school would improve it- they would be the same children in a different building. What it needs is school improvement. ( or are you saying it is only children who wouldn't pass a selective test that make it a bad school?)

Mehitabel6 · 06/12/2014 21:21

Not all grammar schools are good.

LePetitMarseillais · 06/12/2014 21:25

Ours are fine although their are several that aren't so much further afield.

There are good and bad comps the same as good and bad privates and yes the 1 highly publicised poor grammar.

The fact is this sweeping argument that all comps are fab is utter rubbish.

Schools vary.Kids vary.You look at your options,your kids and you go for what is best for your children.Shock horror it may well not be your local comp as Talkin knows only too well.