Uni advice please....

[Besta]

Dd1 has viewed several universities to study History and has decided on one that she wants to make her firm choice.
She is predicted AAA and her teachers are saying she might even exceed that. The university she wants to go to is an ex poly with a points offer. She likes the feel of it, the course content (we attended the open day with her and it did feel fab and the tutors were outstanding and "world renowned"/leaders in their research area)
Having not been university educated, how is this viewed with regard to employability in the future? Or viewed generally? Is she making a mistake not going to a RG uni, especially as this is a course that is available at all RG unis.

AAA predictions won't be adequate for Durham.

Oops sorry replied to a post on page 1 - hadn't seen the other three pages! I'll read them now.

They say for Durham - typical offer A*AA for history what doesn't mean that every single student which they will give offer to is going to have those grades.

If you look at the rankings, there are RG universities that are listed quite a way below non-RG universities and this becomes even more marked when you look by subject. It's a private club not an objective marker of quality. She should probably look at which universities rank best for history and use that to help her decide.

antimatter quite right - at Durham most of the history offers will go to those predicted at the very least A*AA and often far more. There's a big difference between standard offer and predicted grades of those to whom offers are made.

I know the history dept at Northumbria quite well (don't work there myself though). It's a dept full of talented researchers and committed teachers, and punches well above its weight in RAE/REF and in its esteem within the university itself. Your DD's predicted grades are significantly higher than most entrants, though.

I'd also say that the higher education landscape has changed hugely in the last 8 years, and that HEPI report is very outdated.

Oh and math, btw, the concept of an 'Irish Revolution' is part of the historiography now - see Foster, Hart, Fitzpatrick, Townshend - including refining/challenging/updating our understanding of what a 'revolution' might be. So the sneering at the course title is a bit out of date.

Janine how can you say Northumbira punches above its weight in the RAE? They returned 8 fte for hisroty (yes, eight) and had 0 4 and 20 3 ( 45 2* etc). It may well be all change on the REf but thats not out til next month.

compare newcastle - still a small dept for history tbh - but they have entered 28 fte and achieved 20% 4* etc....

As a comparator look at Ox Brookes for histroy - another ex poly - 23 fte for 25 % 4 * - now thats punching above its weight......

Northumbira is most def NOT punching above its weight in history in the RAE.....

(This being relevant to the OP as there is a considerable school of thought that the quality of research influences the quality of teaching and also quality of outcomes)

Would she go as far as York'? They have an American exchange programme. I think she needs some serious guidance away from Northumbria. Also, if she's not confident enough to go away from home for the first year, I would guess she won't be ready for a year in the US in second year. It would be a shame to pick a course based on that opportunity.

Sorry, speaking more to the REF. I believe 95% of the dept have been submitted. Everyone has a monograph for this cycle as well as the usual journal articles. Virtually all the dept is research active and most of the old teaching-only staff (the original poly employees) have retired. Northumbria History has expanded hugely in the last 5 years and there has been a sea-change in the research culture of the department.

But I agree, it sounds like the OP's DD would be better off in Newcastle Uni, if she's set on Newcastle as a city.

Good clarification janine - its so true that many departments in many places are simply not recognisable now compared with their RAE 2008 submissions.

The timing of the REF results will be helpful to this years cohort of applicants too - out next month so plenty of time to use up to date assessments in deciding where to go. But i still wouldn't choose an academic subject at an ex poly if i were predicted 3 As.

Me either!

I do lots of admissions stuff for my dept (neither Northumbria nor Newcastle ) and I'm frequently taken aback at the bad advice, misinformation and wrongheadedness coming from schools on applications.

The REF (formerly RAE) is the returns a uni has to do on its research e.g number of staff, number of academic publications etc

REF is a league table to compare university departments looking at their research produced. Some MNers strongly argue that high volume & quality research = high quality teaching. Which is weird to me because when I was applying for Uni, everyone openly said that high research Unis = more theory & less contact with lecturers, a less supportive environment overall. REF goes up when lecturers get lots of research money in and publications out, not by prioritising anything about teaching or undergrads.

I suspect REF results are much like Ofsted Ratings. Picture An Outstanding rated primary school in a leafy Boden-clad mummy area vs. a Requires Improvement school on a council estate. A lot of the difference in Ofsted ratings comes down to social character of intake, not quality of teaching or even potential achievement by individuals.

No sneering intended on my part; surely the beauty of history is that there is no interpretation of past events or alleged events or drifts or movements or definitions or redefinitions that is not up for grabs?

Some years ago, Oxford Brookes got a higher rating for its History department than did Oxford University. The Today programme (I think) invited both to comment. Oxford Uni declined to be interviewed, but Brookes sent a representative. He explained that, whereas Oxford hired people they knew and told them what to teach, Brookes hired people who were good and let them teach what they wanted.

The history department at northumbria is one of the best performing research-wise in the university. There are some really great staff there and they should probably do much better in the REF than other departments. And I'm sure the staff are committed to teaching well.

But, the student experience will still be in large classes (25+ in a seminar group masquerading as small group teaching) surrounded by unmotivated students who haven't done the reading and don't want to discuss it or do the task anyway. Indeed, they may well want to spend the seminar moaning about the injustice that the staff expect them to read anything at all or expect them to contribute to discussions.

You might get more contact time with staff on paper than elsewhere, but the quality of that contact time is seriously reduced when staff need to deal with the kind of bad behaviour you'd expect from Y9s in a poor school and managing the completely inappropriate expectations of large numbers of your fellow students. The thing about learning at university is that it isn't so much about what the staff can 'teach' you, as it is in how much you participate in the opportunities to discuss your ideas and work on tasks, so it matters if your classmates are intent on playing on their phones/discussing which one on geordie shore they fancy most/just plain refuse to contribute or whether they're all there trying to get something out of the class.

Oh dear - don't like the sound of Northumbria based on that and it is currently number 1 choice for ds applying next year but not for History. Surely its not completely full of naughty Y9s

Your DD will have 5 choices on her UCAS form, in no order of preference. It is usual to put 1 or 2 aspirational, 2or 3 achievable and back ups that will almost certainly take you. So nothing to lose by putting all the Unis mentioned, if being local is a factor. Durham is one of the most respected History courses in the country, and very competitive to get on, plus they are notorious for keeping candidates waiting, but it would make a good aspirational choice if there isn't too much riding on it emotionally. You only need one place, 3 or 4 are a bonus. Then your DD can be in a position to make a more informed choice knowing her offers, and armed with more info from offer days which tend to be more focused on the reality of the courses.

If she feels insecure armed with a 3A prediction she might want to consider one of the unis further afield handing out unconditional offers such as Birmingham.

And in the end if that is the History course she really wants to do and she is sure that is where her interests and heart lie then ......

Back in the 70s I peed off my Grammar School teachers by putting down a string of History courses at less prestigious unis that focused on Social and Economic History rather than as it then was the study of Politics, Kings and Queens, and if I was lucky Medievil Field systems at Oxford. I ended up loving the opportunity to study Latin American History, 18th century social history with EP Thompson coming down from Oxford, where no undergraduate got a scent of him etc etc. I do not regret that choice at all though clearly Oxford or similar would have been handier on my CV. I had a successful career in spite of it and returned to uni 9 years ago to discover that the History I studied is now mainstream.

Also OP you are not wrong in saying that the lecturers and tutors are world leaders in what they research/ teach, it is just that History now is such a broad field and the competition to get any academic post so fierce that I doubt any unis are employing Historians who are not respected for their research and within their area of research. I could stand up and say I am a world leading researcher into one group of women living in one period in one part of the world because nobody else is researching them