Uni advice please....

[Besta]

Dd1 has viewed several universities to study History and has decided on one that she wants to make her firm choice.
She is predicted AAA and her teachers are saying she might even exceed that. The university she wants to go to is an ex poly with a points offer. She likes the feel of it, the course content (we attended the open day with her and it did feel fab and the tutors were outstanding and "world renowned"/leaders in their research area)
Having not been university educated, how is this viewed with regard to employability in the future? Or viewed generally? Is she making a mistake not going to a RG uni, especially as this is a course that is available at all RG unis.

Besta:

my sincere advice is consider Durham (still up north - but much higher 'respect' factor - e.g. Guardian ranking of University departments History/ History of Art: www.theguardian.com/education/table/2013/jun/04/university-guide-history-history-of-art. Considering somewhere like St. Andrews may also make a lot of sense - and it's a lovely community for students.

I get that there may be financial/ personal reasons for remaining local - and it may be logical to be thinking of teacher training somewhere local in order to improve empoyability options post University. However - what are her aspirations in terms of teaching? Ultimately being Assitant Head Teacher or even Head Teacher? Going away, getting the experience - opting for something like Teach First post graduation (where you're paid & trained) - may make a lot of sense.

Opting to study history somewhere like Warwick - with a strong Education department - may strategically make a lot of sense as well.

So my advice is look to the longterm strategy. Good degree from a top flight university too often will trump a good degree from a former poly. It's not particularly fair - but there it is. If you're telling parents the new HT read history at Durham.... or the new Head teacher read history at Lancaster .... - these will send different signals.

Now in some areas having 'a local' is particularly valued - but I don't know what the situation would be for your DD in terms of wanting to work somewhere in particular or not - however I think you can do some investigating. Talk to people in administration at your present secondary - and ask their honest opinion. If the ultimate goal is to get the undergraduate degree and go into teaching what do they advise - they're best placed to know frankly.

HTH

It does ring alarm bells if she is choosing a course based on 'this is the level I think I can achieve' - of course it's sensible to have a course that she's happy with that will be falling over themselves to have her, but there is no danger in having a couple of aspirational choices in there that she doesn't think she is up to [especially as she clearly is!] - the only way to be sure of not getting into a course is not to apply.

I was going to say something about the benefit of being surrounded by peers who are academic when you are doing an academic course, but it sounds like she would instantly turn that into 'i wouldn't fit in or feel comfortable there' so that's probably not a way to go

There's some interesting comments against Durham on these boards, you'd have to trawl the threads to find them. I remember concluding that it was a kind of specialised atmosphere that wouldn't have suited some. Historically famous for Townie vs. Student resentment, too, but hopefully that's all in the past.

I think this sort of league table is helpful. What MNers get het about is especially the research output, but it's your daughter's right to decide based on what's important to her & no one else.

oops (see I linked to same table as someone else!)

thing is, ex-polys can't compete with pre-92 Universities for things like prestige or research output. In same way that 1960s Universities tried not to compete with Redbrick. They ended up offering other things, different courses, different emphasis. Again, your Daughter's choice to weigh up different factors as she sees fit.

Northumbria offer an American exchange. This would allow her to be in America for (potentially) Hillary Clinton becoming President. She has a great interest in American politics and the course would allow her to indulge this through optional modules and of course it's a huge opportunity to be in America while the first woman president is elected (if it happens!).

She really doesn't fancy Durham. She was going to put this as her "aspiration all" choice but has decided against it and is choosing her 5 options from newcastle and Northumbria with a view to Northumbria being firm as she liked it so much. I suppose my question is prestige over opportunity? (And happiness as well!) I totally take on board all of the comments about aiming high and looking long term.

aspirational bloody phone!

MNers are a highly aspirational bunch, you know what most folk are going to say!!

It's your DD's life. Mine's a different field, but I went for a less aspirational choice for my university & it turned out to be a brilliant choice (for me). I ended up with some highly sought after applied technical skills (the aspirational Uni would have been heavy on theory & much less applied). Being a big fish in the small pond was perfect for someone with my low-self-confidence background, meant I got more support and less challenge & competition.

Obvious, I'm sure others will say this, but I think other Unis must offer years abroad for History students. So that alone shouldn't be deciding factor methinks.

Part I'm clueless about, Post 1st degree she'd have to get a PGCE, I think? What about contacting 3 PGCE course admissions people and asking them how'd they'd view a 1st from Northumbria vs. a 2.1 or 2.2 at Newcastle. Would it really matter?

Hard choice\decision this is the kind of provision a good uni will offer to stand out from Russell group and attract exactly the top of student your Dd is it will be something to stand out on her CV yes. I would suggest to her to get in contact with the course tutors of all the universities she is considering...explain what excites her and attracts her to certain history courses the Tutors may be able to elucidate on specific modules or give you info that is not always on website in easily accessible form. Lots of Unis have partner universities in the states.

Remember that while the marketing team at northumbria are very good at selling all these opportunities, they're far from unique. The other universities just don't feel the need to make such as fuss about it in their marketing.

Newcastle offer study abroad opportunities. As does Durham. And they're likely to be partnered with better universities (sad but true). There are organisations that provide funding for study in America, and not all universities are equally good bets for getting such funding. Again, sad but true.

KCL has an exchange with Chapel Hill in N Carolina iirc on their history degree. A friend's daughter did it & really enjoyed it. St Andrews does exchanges with the U.S. for geography so might for other subjects.

I think virtually every university in the country has a U.S. exchange system, many places will barely mention this in their subject prospectus material because it's more or less a given. Ask at open days. I suspect that universities with a higher profile will have links with better known US universities.

IIRC Warwick does/did overseas options for their history course?

Would just like to point out that when Newcastle refers to the HASS faculty that includes History as the faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences. So yes there is a study abroad option with the states. Universities do frustrate me with their websites sometimes... Having navigated some for research lately ..so full of acronyms you can just imagine some teenagers not getting the right info they need to make the best decision. Has your daughter considered where she may go for PGCE ...? This can be an area where non Russell group Unis can excel some of them having been specialist teaching colleges for over a century!

Thank you Smellylittle :) she had looked but this had escaped both of us! I'm going to ask her to email various people who'd given their addresses for further info regarding this.
She hasn't considered as far as pcge yet, in much the same way as lots of teens, she lives in the here and now and struggles with the concept of "when I'm a grown up"!

Something else to consider is that while she thinks she might like to teach now she might easily want to do something completely different in a few years. I think its hard to realise what all the available opportunities available to you are when you are at school and you have only had limited life experience.

Also the staying near home thing. My dd was very keen to stay near home at the beginning of the 6th form. But as she grew up and matured over the year that became less important, and she is now 450 miles away [sob]

lljkk is on the money.

Don't get sucked into a university simply because it's Russell Group.

The RG is a paid membership body. It was set up to represent the interests and market (which it does very successfully) of large research universities (which tends to require a University Hospital). It has, until very recently, excluded universities based on the size of their student body (so smaller research intensive universities like Leicester and the School of Oriental and African Studies couldn't join).

Being a member of the RG is absolutely no guarantee of the teaching quality or the standing of a particular department within a particular sector.

The thing about history is that is never going to offer you technical skills or be heavier on theory than it should be. History is theory. It's not like architecture or programming or other fields of study where technical skills will be extremely important in your career but you might waste your time in an institution that takes a more hands off approach.

It's not aspirational to get the history degree in the best regarded university you can get into (and not aspirational to want to get the best possible grade of history degree you can possibly get once you get in) because lots of history grads hit the job market every year, along with graduates in all the other liberal arts subjects, all looking in pretty much the same places for jobs. Arts grads are a dime a dozen in other words, and you need to stand out.

RG means selective admission and rigorous education to most employers and graduate schemes. It's all very well to complain about it being a paid up club, etc., but there are many employers who do not recruit outside of RG because this 'branding' has been extremely successful. It's not snobbery to set your sights on one of the more selective universities. You are going to pay a certain amount for third level education and you should make sure your money is not wasted.

(It's the same in the US, with unofficial tiers of universities where the top tier is the Ivy League/public ivies/non-east-coast 'ivies';lots of employers will not look at you unless you graduated from one of those places, and there have been studies demonstrating a career-long effect in terms of promotion/money earned over the course of a career to bear out the proposition that aiming for the best you can possibly get into is a good idea).

I would definitely be steering her towards the RGs and away from the former polys.

[Durham/RG] 'they're likely to be partnered with better universities (sad but true). There are organisations that provide funding for study in America, and not all universities are equally good bets for getting such funding. Again, sad but true.'

YYY to this.

There are ex-polys and ex polys
BUT
after graduation, employers might ask why a kid who could have gone to a top 50 UK Uni chose not to.

The RG is indeed VERY lazy short hand for "good" - the meejah have a lot to answer for there

She needs to go to the right place for her

the uni itself is NOT the most unbiased source of info

Personally, I'd completely ignore the Russell Group snobbery on MN, and encourage her to go the Uni that she feels is the best fit for her. I would check the graduate employment record first however. As Talkin said, there are ex polys and there are ex polys.

When it comes to global rankings, a lot of the Russell Group Unis are really not all that.

I don't think there are many ex polys featured in the global rankings though. All of the rankings feature several RG universities in at least the top 200. Not every RG, granted, but none of the former polys as far as I can see from recent lists.

mathanxiety
on the total globals, that is indeed the case, but in certain subjects, certain polys rank very highly

It's strangely reassuring to read that other people are having a similar dilemma!

Course Vs Uni? Uni Vs Course?

My dd - currently in Y11 - has started to think about options after A levels and where/what she may study. Her subjects would be English Lit, History, RE and music and she'll probably be in the ABB/BBB range so unlikely to get into RG unis.

It's really hard to know what to advise so it's been great reading the different threads on this thread.

HEPI paper on academic experience at British universities illustrating the benefits of studying history in an environment that is competitive, and where your fellow students are capable of being accepted in a very selective admissions process. History (in general) involves fewer formal hours (in classes, tutorials) and longer personal study time. You could spend as little as 17 hours per week and as much as 37 on your history workload, depending on where you go (table 11).

Take a look in particular at Annex D showing hours worked per week/percentage of 1sts and 2.1s and UCAS tariff of various universities. All of this information is available to employers, post grad admission committees and grad scheme recruiters.