Which SW London independent(s) should DD try for at 11+ ?

[castlesintheair]

It's all a bit complicated as we are currently overseas and DD1 has been learning a different curriculum in a different language since last year. We have a potential plan to come back for September 2015 when she will start secondary school.

Older DC has a place at KGS and DD1 is sitting that exam in January. However, given that she's not been tutored and has been out of UK system for nearly 2 years, where else can she realistically try for?

She's happy with co-ed or all girls. She's bright but wasn't top set bright at her UK outstanding state school. I don't think she'll thrive in an overly competitive all girls environment. She's an all-rounder really: loves sport, art, and very much into drama, dance, singing etc.

I'm not keen on Radnor or Ibstock. Any ideas?

Really? I have never given any school league tables anything other than a cursory glance and I certainly wouldn't judge the quality of a school based on them! The schools my children have sat exams for (and will do so in the future) have all been visited by us and it is on that which we base our decision whether to try for a place or not.

I don't think ANYONE goes by tables alone and I hope no-one would consider a school a child hadn't visited but when deciding which schools to visit where else do you start? All I am saying is that schools have become very conscious of this. It wasn't meant as a criticism, I just feel that this information was supposed to help prospective parents but I am not sure it always helps existing parents or pupils.

cake, sorry, I wasn't clear: my comment last night was in response to the suggestion by another poster that I am "judging the quality of the schools only by the 2013 league tables". I didn't realise that was the impression I give (especially as I haven't studied league tables as I said before!), but it really doesn't matter anyway and no criticisim taken here. I absolutely agree that league tables are there to help parents and a good place to kick off from.

I have to say that Castles has only ever displayed common sense and a concern about finding the right school for their children. Not at all afflicted with the South West London crowdsourcing flashmob collective hysteria If it is ratcheting up every year what next? the playground at pick up time at DDs school in the Autumn term of Year 6 was already in serious need of Valium and that was over a decade ago.

When we were leaving, all excited, on our great adventure overseas in Year 3 the other parents were shocked and commiserating that we stood no chance in the 11+ . Only the Headmistress understood it was a good thing....

Hmm, I too wonder where it is leading to. Doing it a second time, there is definitely a ratchet up even in the space of a couple of years. For many years, we had the mantra - three schools only; stretch;achievable; banker - but I am seeing more and more of my dcs classmates applying to more and more schools. DD told me yesterday of classmates being entered for 7 schools and while I had seen that before it was on the crazer end of the class parents, whereas this is now being seen as more mainstream. Four seems to be the absolute minimum and the dcs school has changed to recommending that.

IMO, I think that is also how you end up with children getting squeezed and receiving no offers - offers are being made to people applying for schools that they have absolutely no intention of going to and the v good candidates will be holding 5-7 offers.

Observationally, I think the other thing that has gobsmacked me is also the amount of tutoring that is going on for children in good prep schools. We did not last time and are not doing so this time, on the basis that I think the school should perfectly well be able to prepare my dcs - and I am paying them to do so - but I would say we are in a minority.

I think that may be another symptom of the hysteria. There was some tutoring at my DDs prep ten years ago, but just a couple of pushy parents using outside tutors but I gather at Tower House that had already got to the point where most pupils were having secret trysts with the teachers after school, as if they didn't already spend enough time with them!!! It made not an iota of difference though. Plenty of those not tutored got in.

There are more pupils chasing places though even without the effect of applying to more. There is a pupil bulge coming through, starting last year, the census figures are somewhere on the very detailed local thread but in the borough of Richmond alone the numbers coming out of Year 6 are increasing, I think by 2017 there will be something like a 17% larger cohort than 2013, the same in neighbouring boroughs, that is what the state school places provision controversy was about. Plenty about it all on the RISC website too. Presumably that was what the venture capitalists behind Radnor had their eye on. Applying to more evens out since the schools getting more rejections will make more offers but there will be an underlying pressure.

The problem with tutoring prep school children is that it puts them in danger of going to schools that are a stretch academically, and condemning them to another 7 years of tutoring once they get there. A sensible amount of tutoring for primary school children to even up the playing field a bit is probably essential, however.

My state primary educated eldest squeaked in to her school from the waiting list, but she has held her own with no tutoring ever since - and that's not the case for a surprising number of her peers.

Thanks for the vote of confidence shootingatpigeons. One of my guilt trips is that I've "messed up" DD1's future by yanking her out of year 4 and taking her abroad, so your words of encouragement are much appreciated.

I have a son in Y8 in a school that you are not keen on, op.

We came new into the school for Y7, so missed all the hoohaa about children from the prep having to achieve in line with new students and not just automatically go from prep through to the secondary. I honestly thought this was normal? If you are not selected academically at 4, will being in an independent school mean you don't have to sit the 11+ along with the other children hoping to gain entry? Why should this be? As far as I know (from friends with kids in the prep), the parents were just told that the children had to sit 11+ and prepare for a plan B in case they did not succeed. Most children did achieve well and was therefore offered a place. Some opted to go elsewhere. More than half of the Y7 intake came from the prep, and these have blended well with the new kids making them feel very welcome.

DS had a wobble last year, and did not enjoy it much in the last term. We did manage to get to the bottom of his problems, and the school dealt with it very efficiently. I found the pastoral care to be excellent. His experience so far in Y8 is very good, and his house tutor called me last week to catch up and chat about how he is doing, and how his summer was. It seems to me he is now starting to shine. Auditioning for parts in shows, music, choirs, etc, with a much greater confidence. He has a nice friendship group.

I find that the school has high expectations, and they are quite strict regards to the pupils conduct. I cant compare it to any other independents, though.

When he sat his 11+ he had just been back in the country for 1 1/2 years after 3 years in Norway. His English was a bit rusty, he had not read the same literature as his peer groups, his manners were not as polished. He sat the exams for KCS (ha!), Emanuel and IPS. He was not offered a place at KCS!

Both Emanuel and IPS placed great emphasis on the interviews, and also the day spent at school were the children were taking part in lessons and activities. I got the impression that they were not just after academic excellence but a well rounded child. Both schools were keen on talking about his experience overseas, so his time abroad felt valuable to him.

Another thing I like about the school is the grade system. He may have bottom grade for English, but he has top marks for effort, so to me this means that he is doing his best and working hard. In my book, we celebrate effort more than actual achievement so I am happy when I see high levels of effort, the actual grades will improve as we go along. At parents evening the teachers have placed as much emphasis on his efforts, and they are happy with a child that tries hard.

Another aspect I like is the Ethics course which is tied up with public speaking. They learn to think critically through a topic, argue it from all angles, while at the same time construct their arguments logically. On a personal note, I now need to remember I cannot argue with my son, I have to debate with him and he now quite adept at picking my arguments apart calmly. He is also proving to beat me in chess.

So, would I be happy to send my younger son there? Absolutely.

Again, with the benefit of hindsight, a question I would ask is what happens to children who are struggling to keep up, including for non-academic reasons (bereavement/illness in the family, etc). Very few schools will actually say "we have a trap door" or "we manage them out" but my (anecdotal) experience is that in some schools there is a constant "looking over your shoulder" and an official line that "some children may not thrive in this environment". That is another reason why highly selective schools get good exam results - not just the entry at 11 but the constant reassessing of the pool. A bit like the Hunger Games, the stellar results are those of the ones who stay the course! Obviously I'm exaggerating, but it is a point to consider.

A good question to ask yourself is "will this school help us out as a family if the [unspecified] shit hits the fan?"

Castles - I am actually very jealous because you have had the opportunity to live in France, my favourite country, for a few years. The cultural and language benefits that experience will bring to your DCs is immeasurable. It is horrible that you should feel that by doing this you have somehow "messed up" When you have come through this hysteria you will know this isn't true and it is all going to work out fine.

Shooting - you may want to re-think your "trysts with teachers" comments before their lawyers contact you!

SonorousBip - they all do it, some are just more up front than others. I love the "children may not thrive" but my favourite is "this is an academic school and we feel that X maybe struggling and its not fair on them" it has the advantage of making it sound like you are trying to help the child by kicking them out of your school!

In my dreams this will all change in a few years, people will realise how good the current state schools are, the new ones will be just as popular and Indy school will be half empty and offers will be made with the provision that you promise to send all your younger DCs there as well. There are people in Richmond trying to make this happen.

Thank you cake. I know what you say is true, I think I just need to clock in here more regularly for a soothing dose of reassurance! I also love what you are saying about your dreams for the school sitch in SW London. I would love that to happen.

I just spoke to the the registrar at KGS and honestly they could not be more accommodating towards us. The place definitely gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling.

QS, thanks for the insights. If I deduce correctly from what you've written, we are very interested in the school your DS is at for our DD. I'm actually applying at the moment. I just have to decide on the other 2 schools to sit her for ... or should that be 5 ??

I've heard a few good things about St George's from people on here and elsewhere so if anyone has any insights please share. I don't have to consider journey times as we can basically live anywhere. I might even sit DS for it for year 9 entry if it's that good.

Talking about hysteria, I registered DD for 9 schools last year (I know, I know - was not thinking straight at the time).

She sat for 4 in the end (but 5 exams as KGS has a separate scholarship exam) and I honestly think sitting another one would make her ill. What didn't help is that her prep (that goes until 13+) also has internal exams in all subjects in autumn term from which 11+ candidates were not exempt either.

She got 3 offers.

In retrospect, I think we should have sat for 3 not 4. The fourth one was aspirational (very! and now retrospect that I am relaxed and can think straight I think we shouldn't have sat for it and it would be very wrong for DD), all others realistic. But - we wanted co-ed and one of the two co-eds was totally oversubscribed for girls, we were told it was often a lottery. So we had to sit for another co-ed (KGS) which we loved, but location wise it was worse than the other co-ed. The girls school was next to our preferred co-ed so if we were to chose between KGS and the girls one, we might have chosen the latter for location anyway. So it was all very complicated.

But my point is that 4 is more than enough and 3 is probably enough if you pitch it well to ability. I don't actually know how kids can physically handle more than 5 exams.

sorry to hijack - irisha how's your dd getting on at her preferred coed? My dd's thrown herself right in and is having a ball :)

soddinghormones, DD is absolutely loving it (at least for now! don't want to jinx it). Loves the teachers, loves the kids, the food, etc.

Gets very tired though by the end of the day and needs to get up a full hour earlier to catch the bus. So we are all adjusting a bit.

Not clear yet if she's made any friends but I guess it's too early.

All in all, so far so good. Long may it last!

castles We applied to St George's, largely on the back of the very positive experiences of neighbours and friends, though we are at the farthest reaches of their bus network which was a negative. It is very much a supportive community with a very friendly feel, it was already tightening up academically and has further since. The Catholicism is very inclusive (we are not). Great environment as well. The drawback is that unless you are going to live in Weybridge or Walton you are going to spend a lot of time driving there. Plus some of the families are seriously wealthy from all those riverside gated estates.

sonourous again I would be careful of specific stories you have heard. Our experience and that of peers at other schools is that once in these schools really do try and stick by the pupils, actually to an extent that I felt was potentially damaging to other pupils. The ones I know who left before they were pushed had a long history of dysfunctional behaviour of the nicking things from teachers handbags, turning up at match fixtures with other schools with halftime Vodka variety. Likewise with those who went elsewhere for academic reasons they had had lots of support and repeated target setting but preferred to party. KGS has only just started setting minimum levels to stay on for sixth form. LEH don't have them and I know told one stressed pupil not to stress, they could get 5Es and still come back and get on with A levels (though they had the potential to do well) however couldn't agree with you more on the state system, I may be one of those people you mention ;-)

Sorry ....got cake and castles mixed up with my OP comment. No offence intended!

Am actually very jealous of OPs overseas experience and would love to take my kids abroad for an international education...

After reading this thread the facts have changed my mind.I think in the current climate DC should apply to 4/5 schools.It is such a lottery.

I agree Pop1ns. I'm just having trouble coming up with a list that long!

Thank you ohtobeanonymous. I'll swap ya

And shootingatpigeons, thanks for info 're StG. Not sure about that one.

We just went to the StG open morning and my DD really loved it. Of all the schools I've looked at for her I like the Head the best. His talk was really level headed and made a lot of sense to me.
I really disagree with sitting your DD for 4-5 schools. We did that for DS because we really didn't know where he was academically as we'd been abroad all his school years. It was a pretty awful experience as he failed 4/5. So with DD I want to be more targeted. I think cake's suggestion of aspiration, sound chance and back up is very sensible.