Which SW London independent(s) should DD try for at 11+ ?

[castlesintheair]

It's all a bit complicated as we are currently overseas and DD1 has been learning a different curriculum in a different language since last year. We have a potential plan to come back for September 2015 when she will start secondary school.

Older DC has a place at KGS and DD1 is sitting that exam in January. However, given that she's not been tutored and has been out of UK system for nearly 2 years, where else can she realistically try for?

She's happy with co-ed or all girls. She's bright but wasn't top set bright at her UK outstanding state school. I don't think she'll thrive in an overly competitive all girls environment. She's an all-rounder really: loves sport, art, and very much into drama, dance, singing etc.

I'm not keen on Radnor or Ibstock. Any ideas?

Thanks for all the advice and shootingatpigeons especially for the extensive summary. Really helpful. That Old Vicarage list does make interesting reading. I'm going to read everything again and will be back with more questions no doubt. It definitely feels even more of a minefield approaching it from overseas but everyone's advice has been very encouraging.

castles I am not sure if I have ever shared this on a thread you have been on but my PFB sat the exams overseas. I actually think that though I was feeling my way it was an advantage. No parents and children winding you and your DD up with Chinese whispers about the exams and what it takes to get in, mostly based on hot air, no huge exam halls where they are eyeball to eyeball with hundreds of others and just the information the schools provided on which to make sensible decisions on how much support my DD needed (some DIY Maths with some 11+ workbooks to cover what her school hadn't and work on any areas of weak understanding - though little did I know she is actually good at Maths! and a weekly one hour session for a term with a liked teacher, cakes, exam technique and a bit of literacy - though again little did I know she had a weakness and was actually later diagnosed dyslexic, albeit disguised by a photographic memory ) We also found that the schools ironically apart from the old Headmaster at KGS fell over themselves to make sure she knew they valued her overseas experience. I shall never know how she did but the schools made it clear that they were not just judging on attainment but on all the evidence they gathered. The old Head at LEH said that "the interview probably tells us the most".

Wow, thank you for those encouraging words shootingatpigeons. KGS have already said they are aware my DCs' have been educated in a foreign language for the last 2 years and that will be considered but I always assume I should take things like that with a pinch of salt.

I was wondering if she should sit the exams here. I was going to ship her over for them all but that's pretty disruptive even though we're only in Europe!

Galore Park books "So you really want to learn English" etc, are worth looking at. Though used by Independent Schools preparing pupils for 11+ and 13+ they are also designed to be used at home by parents trying to give children extra support, eg those not already in the Prep school system.

I'm not sure I can add any more in terms of identifying schools. However some of those listed above are tightening up their entrance levels and children who'd be expected to get in have recently found themselves without offers.
What I can add though is that my DS sat all his entrance exams when we were living in the US. He had only one month to prepare (it was an unexpected job move) and I honestly don't think it was enough. Despite assurances from schools that his overseas experience and education in a different curriculum would be taken into account I didn't actually see any evidence of this after we requested feedback from all the schools which rejected him. Only one school chose to do an interview using Skype which I thought was a very practical idea and maybe worth suggesting to the schools where you apply.
Now I have a Yr 6 DD in the prep system I feel that I'm much more savvy to the value of the relationship between prep and senior school. See if you can get your DD's current head teacher to really lobby on her behalf.

Papa I have had DDs do the 11+ From a UK prep and an overseas school that was the equivalent of a UK state school and whilst your Prep school head knows the senior schools and can advise you on the one your child is best suited to (and when overseas you are in the dark on that) I am quite sure they have no influence, other than via the reference, on the selection process. Indeed at my DDs prep where they tended to value those with straightforward academic ability who did best in tests of attainment the final verdict from the senior schools came as a shock, with some of those who did best in tests of attainment not getting in. The senior schools were much better at spotting potential and especially at seeing through Specific Learning Difficulties or overseas backgrounds, even having English as a second language. I know there were indignant parents storming the Heads Office when the offers came out but there really was nothing she could do.
My older DD got into all the schools we applied from overseas with the minimal prep I described below including an incredibly naive punt at St Paul's. Last year another girl from the same overseas background got into St Paul's with the same sort of naive prep. Prep schools do go to great lengths to prepare the pupils for the exams but quite honestly it has as much to do with parental expectations and pushiness as the actual requirements of the senior school exams. Not being part of that ridiculous maelstrom of parental anxiety and competitiveness was definitely an advantage.

I am sorry about your son's experience but I have plenty of experience of the schools understanding and valuing overseas experience. You only need to visit a classroom of one of the more selective schools and you can witness the diversity of cultural backgrounds and places lived. In both my DDs years there were a good 30% with overseas backgrounds of some sort and several who had applied from overseas.

If they are not already at a Prep it is much harder to find an selective 11+ place for a boy in West London. Lots of girls schools, but relatively few boys ones. And even some of those have gone co-ed or mainly take at 13+.

Most private girls schools, with the possible exception of SPGS, take significant numbers from state Primaries who will not have had the same level of preparation as those at Preps. At the end of the day they are looking for potential, rather than achievement to date.

Some Preps may claim to have a "hot line" to certain senior schools, but weighed against that is a tendency to make their minds up about girls a couple of years earlier, eg around Yr 4. They can then be quite prescriptive. Top half of top set apply for SPGS/Wycombe. the rest for G&L, Putney and maybe Francis Holland. Second set kids then head for the Queens, More House, St James' etc.

A few years into secondary it is clear that where they were at the start of Yr 7, or where they thought they were, is quite different from where they end up in Yr 11. The girl who shocked that she did not get a place at SPGS has faded, and a couple of late developers have streaked ahead. From observation some Preps do seem better at getting average kids into good schools, but I am not sure it is an advantage to then be at the bottom, rather than towards the top at somewhere less academic.

That said being a Prep means you have a better understanding of where your child sits in the cohort and what to try for. This will be difficult for OP.

Really I would not worry unduly. Make sure schools understand your child's educational background. Use the Galore Parks books to make sure that your child has covered the ground in maths and English. Practice a little timed VR and non VR if these skills are tested. Apply for a few, probably five, and allow for a bit of a range. And then trust the schools to want to take the girls most like to thrive.

In practice schools select, not you. But don't get too put off by the numbers. Most will be applying to five, and big schools like Surbiton will take a pretty broad range.

Thanks for the tip about the Galore books Needmoresleep. I've got the maths one already and will buy the english one.

Is it worth writing an accompanying letter to schools explaining our situation in more detail or is it obvious to them from the application form and by doing so I'm just being annoying?

We enjoyed the English one. There were several class type discussion activities which could be done in the car or at the table, which gave her older brother a chance to support. Also rather than get DD to do a full essay each time we got her to plan each of the titles given in each chapter. Much quicker and the aim was for her to start constructively, not panic.

A cover letter is a good idea. You are not pleading for your child. Simply giving the school the background that will help them make the right decision. On the whole, registrars are very helpful. You could ask if there is anything else they might want. (A reference from her previous English school?) You could also ask what they will want the current head to cover in their reference and whether you need to brief him/her. You might add that if their testing shows up an area of weakness resulting from having been in a different system, eg she is behind on maths, you would be willing to work with the school and to identify support she could have over the summer so she hits the ground running in September. Schools don't select parents but my assumption is that they prefer constructive and supportive parents.

castles Your DDs school will provide a reference which should include the context of what sort of school it is and the curriculum covered, and those sorts of issues. I didn't add anything to that relying on the school to reveal more by how they said it than by what they said. Apart from St Pauls my DDs school had not heard of any of the school she was applying for and being a touch 70s and hippy dippy they were ideologically opposed to selection or ever highlighting strengths or weakness (they had only just reintroduced competition to Sport's Day) so it probably went something like her reports...... . "She is such a kind girl , treats others with respect, a great sense of humour and very good with the little ones. We very much enjoyed her dancing as part of the performance at our 25th anniversary and she has been an enthusiastic member of the netball team, choir and orchestra, playing recorder not mentioning she is neither co ordinated, sporty or musical and she is good at Maths" (followed by the results of the NFER tests that they used to use to determine levels then) You might want to discuss it with the school but I was too scared as I was already perceived as the evil pushy mother for entering her for entrance exams for selective schools in the first place!!!

Since it is Europe (I seem to remember?) the schools will have a pretty good idea of the systems, especially if it is France whose school system is the stuff of legend

I have to say that some registrars were helpful but some not. The one at G&L seemed to assume that coming from an overseas school my DD was really being unrealistic in applying and made some comments that made it very clear to DD. She came out with some howlers too, when we asked if they taught the language my DD had learned she said (as other schools did) "Oh no, such a difficult language" and then as small talk we had "I love Wimbledon week. Do they have tennis in....." (we weren't on another planet) She wasn't very helpful about the arrangements for sitting the exams at the overseas school either and in the end DD felt put off though by then she knew where she really wanted to go (which was partly because they showed such interest in her experiences) That Head said after her interview "It (living overseas) gives them so much, not just broader minds, so much that they can contribute to our community".

Some were more flexible about interviews than others. For some we had to fly back after they knew the result of the exams. Others such as Surbiton interviewed whilst we were over before the exams.

Thanks both that is helpful.

Her current school will never have experienced anything like this. We are the only expats in living memory. Everyone moves onto one of the two secondaries in the area. Entrance exams are unheard of. Thankfully DDs teacher speaks fluent English so that's something!

Shooting - Reeds is all boys until sixth form and definitely more selective these days than Claremont

Apologies goldenpond those girls make enough impact for a whole seven years worth, but not relevant to OP ....

Wimbledon High is a good school and not as selective as Putney, so might be worth a shot for a bright but not stellar all-rounder. I don't know what the new head is like, though.

Kew House I would avoid. Its current intake is made up of kids whose parents realised they wouldn't be successful at 11+ (girls) or 13+ (boys) and, in the boys' case, pulled them out of their prep schools early. I imagine its first set of GCSE results in a few years will be distinctly ropy - though I'd be happy to be proved wrong!

Ibstock gets very mixed reviews but I know some children who've been very happy there.

There have been one or two stories around about problems with unaddressed bullying at Surbiton. I wouldn't consider Turing if I were you, too much of an unknown quantity. St Catherine's could be a good bet.

I really like the sound of Wimbledon High.

alma, agree with you about Kew House. Same as Radnor imo which is just a bit further down the line but great that there are these new places popping up.

St Catherine's seems to get mixed reviews.

Surbiton I'm not sure about.

Am warming to Ibstock having been put off at the open day 2 years ago by the head's anti-SN stance. I know some lovely kids there, the facilities/teachers are great and for me the location is perfect.

Might have a punt at Putney or G&L as well.

Thanks everyone. I've had some great advice.

Wimbledon from Richmond's not going to be an easy commute.
Surbiton doesn't interview anymore, it goes on the personal statement.
KGS more of a mix with higher state entry than the others selectives. I get the impression they also look for potential and it isn't quite as much selection by excel spreadsheet as some of the others eg LEH.

IMHO the parents don't really choose the schools.The schools choose the children.Like the housing situation in this area, it is a sellers market.They have rigged the tests to find the child they want, be it out and out academic,DC with potential or all rounders.Some schools the interview is paramount.Note,they even call the admission a selection process.It is this subtle aspect that parents should be aware and act accordingly.
In the light of this find schools you think DC will thrive(open days and MN),have good pastoral care and not too much of a commute.Then halve them ,applying to too many schools is child cruelty.I would also involve DC in the process.
I appreciate that many will find this post very cynical but having applied to SW London schools the situation is insane and want to provide a different opinion and use boards like these to offer a counter argument.

Tess LEH's selection process is not test by Excel spreadsheet. They interview over half of applicants and it is a very important part of the selection process. I have known applicants who were strong on attainment not even get to the interview stage because they did not show creativity in the entrance exam and like Kingston they will explore areas of weakness in the interview if they have decided to interview them in spite of under performing in a particular area. Their entrance exam is a little more demanding of reasoning and logic skills than some of the other schools to enable them to better spot potential and raw ability and quite a high proportion who get in are from state schools (though not as high as the 11+ entry at KGS and Hampton who are as far as the boys are concerned taking a higher proportion of applicants from state schools). They even have relationships with state primaries eg via SHINE to help them attract those with potential to apply. They also end up with around 10% of girls being diagnosed with Specific Learning Difficulties which reflects a selection process that has focused on ability and potential as well as attainment.

They are simply because of demand guided by its academic reputation able to be more selective which means they get bright girls who do well in exams which leads to it keeping it's academic reputation........ ( I wonder how that demand / reputation is going to be affected by this years dip in A level results A/A last year 81%, this year 74%, due to a dysfunctional year and a lot of refugees leaving at 16 and before but the parents applying don't know that......) I am not a great fan of their exam factory approach once the girls are there, somewhere like KGS will be more encouraging and better at developing potential but I do not think it is fair to say they select by numbers. And maybe the new Head will as she says she intends to focus on making the environment a happier one..... As pop* says like all the schools they know what sort of girl (or boy) does well at the school and what they are looking for in tests of attainment and ability and in interview.

I think ironically it would be easier to level the admission by Excel spreadsheet accusation at schools with more straightforward entrance exams such as Surbiton but they are offering to a much broader range in any case. I actually felt that my bright but dyslexic girls had a better chance of showing what they are capable of in the LEH exam than in the more straightforward exams.

pop counter argument to what? I can't imagine many parents disagreeing with you as far as the selection process is concerned. I think what does need to be challenged is the ridiculous levels of parental anxiety and competitiveness that hits parents from, these days, Year 3 on and the ridiculous levels of preparation that goes on dictated by Chinese whispers that bear little relationship to the actual requirements of the exams. As you say the schools know what sort of pupil they want and can see through the tutoring. This is 11 years old now but still relevant www.theguardian.com/education/2003/oct/08/schools.uk5

castles Just a thought and needmore can probably provide more of the benefit of experience but if you have DS at KGS and DD at one of the Hammersmith Schools / Putney then you will be experiencing two very different cultures. The KGS culture is very down to earth. The catchment comes to a certain extent from further out of London, set your satnav to the joys of Sunbury, Coombe and New Malden. The pupils tend to be very relaxed socially. At the Hammersmith Schools you will be getting the offspring of smart affluent Central London parents who as needmore can testify have different values. I would include G&L in the schools with a more selective selection process that is looking for ability as much as attainment and pick up some interesting candidates. I liked it's ethos but I do know a girl who left there because of an exclusive alpha girl culture and emphasis on being a size zero. Alpha girl cliques can arise anywhere and can be an issue at LEH as well but those sorts of exclusive values do seem to be more pervasive the further you go into London. You will obviously get the feel for it when you visit and no doubt your DD will know where she feels most comfortable.

For some unknown reason given the proximity Wimbledon seems to be more down to earth than Putney (something even former Putney Juniors agree with) It's catchment is a bit more local though. My DD has a bunch of lovely relaxed friends from there.

The unrest with Ibstock and the Heads relentless quest to rise up the league tables isn't just from parents of pupils with SpLD who have been casualties or who signed up for a different pastoral ethos. I have heard there has been a move towards spoonfeeding to the exam to get the better results with a less selective intake and know brighter pupils that have moved on frustrated by the lack of challenge. Again you can judge for yourself when you visit.

Shooting, I think that's very true about central London v outer London culture in schools. I know many mums who steer clear of the more central London schools which are probably more accessible from where we lived, because they want a more down to earth school. Once again. KGS comes out trumps for me. I do like the sound of WHS though.

To be honest, it is down to which school ethos and 'feel' you prefer (and which is easiest to get to on a daily basis!). There is precious little difference between the achievements of a top 10 school and a top 50 school in terms of actual academic results. Your DD is likely to de best in an environment in which she is happy and confident, and the most 'selective' academically ma not be the most comfortable or alternatively, it may give her the impetus she needs!

Frankly schools like SPGS and LEH should be blitzing the league tables because of the high academic achievement of their girls upon entry. Other schools actually seem to add more 'value'.

Hard to tell from abroad, though...and may well be more to do with which school your DD is actually accepted to than any choice!

Can you really not stay abroad - sounds so much nicer than the madness of SW competitive schooling....

Ha ha ohtobeanonymous, it's been great to miss out on the 11+ build-up this time and in many ways I'd love to stay abroad (not least because DH will stay here) but I'm not keen on the schooling here, particularly the bit between ages 10-15. We also really miss London, our lives and friends there.

I agree it will probably come down to wherever my poor DD gets a place, if anywhere.