9 GCSE'S grade C, no A level place

[FrancesNiadova]

My DS has got 9 GCSE grade C' s including maths, Eng. Lang, physics, biology & chemistry. He's 2 marks off a B in 1 subject so we're having it re-marked.
He's been told that he can't do A levels & will have to do a year's re-sits. I don't remember it being like this when I did my A's, or my degree, grade C counted as a good, "O," level pass!
Is anyone else experiencing similar barriers being put in their way?

I called them no hopersbecause that seekms to be what most postersare implying here - grade C GCSE = no hope of doing A level.

As I said, I teach these kind of students every day. I teach A level.

And incidentally if one of yours has a desire to be an artist, or a nurse but neither are particularly academic, you might find these no-hope BTEC things are the only way into a career for them. So don't write them off entirely

I would still consider a BTEC unhelpful to be truthful. I would be inclined to suggest my own DC working for a year or two and taking Access to HE and moving on from there. Or if they did not want to work, as I never consider education wasted, I might suggest taking fewer A levels part time in the gap and then applying to university via a foundation degree and then hons in the third year. In fact, I might suggest a Foundation Diploma straight in at Art College via a portfolio for Art ( which could be done by A level as well , even if they did not pass)

What saddens me really here is the unequal nature of access to education.

if this were my Dc who had 9 GCSE grade C passes and wanted to take A levels there would have been an A level place for them to take sciences and probably then go on to university.
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It is sad that educational opportunity is so unequal that this OP is making this post at all.

Skinned flower pot, I have no idea what or where you teach if you are being totally honest about those figures. What you teach might be particularly pertinent as I might be ble to get those grades at A level in health and social care for example with c grade students, but not in facilitating subjects, and particularly not in the pure sciences. In particular the OP was disappointed that her son was being offered applied science and similar. At my school it has nothing to do with protecting league table positions and everything to do with being fair to the individual student. I said it up thread but will repeat it, the chances of success in eg biology or chemistry with a C at GCSE are virtually non existent, most will get a U, a tiny number may scrape an E, often after repeating y12.

I agree with the poster who says she gets students onto midwifery with BTECs, we have too, and various nursing courses. They can be suitable courses for some candidates.

I teach proper A levels in one of those all important "facilitating subjects" . I do not feel the need to be more specific on that really.

Skinned, but it IS partly about allocation of resources. A levels and BTECs are fully funded. It IS a waste of resources to allow pupils to start a course that they have little or no chance of success on. A levels are not an open access course. Just because a pupil or their parents might want them to do A levels, does not mean they should be able to. A levels are NOT a suitable course for all students. I understand that you don't value BTECs, but that in itself does not make A Levels suitable for everyone.
Schools are interested in their position in league tables....education is a market place now, whether you like it or not. Doing well in league tables attracts more students and more funding. However, setting minimum requirements is not just about this. It is also about steering pupils towards courses where they can succeed. If you take pupils who have A* at GCSE and those with C grades too, it radically alters the way that you can teach and the pace of progress of the class. This has to be considered by schools and colleges too, who want to be able to teach an academic course to academic children. There will always be a range of abilities, but just as universities set grade boundaries, so do schools and colleges offering A Levels, so that everyone on the course has a realistic chance of success and can progress at a speed appropriate for the rest of the group.

BTEC might be the way forward for the OPs child, especially if they have a vocation in mind. Better to do a BTEC that is recognised by a job, than to embark on a course which you are unlikely to be successful on. The OPs child and parents need to consider what is going to result in the outcome which will best serve the pupil in the future, in terms of access onto a further course, and into the world of work. Failed or very low A Levels don't really seem a good pathway, even if you don't like the alternatives.

At my school it has nothing to do with protecting league table positions and everything to do with being fair to the individual student. I said it up thread but will repeat it, the chances of success in eg biology or chemistry with a C at GCSE are virtually non existent

I can only say that I am counting my blessings that a DC such as that of the OP, if they were mine would not have to deal with this. As I said earlier, there would be a place for them on an A level course. Its the nature of education to be so unequal in opportunity.

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And I don't understand your comments about equality of access to education. A Levels are not intended to be for everyone. They are for those in the upper academic range.

There has been grade inflation at both GCSE and A Level, which means that at both GCSE and at A Level, you have to achieve more than in the past, in order to access the next stage of education or entry into the workplace. In the past a C was acceptable and people could achieve A Levels which were meaningful. A C is no longer good enough...this does not mean the system is unequal. What would be wrong, would be for schools and colleges to accept students onto A Level courses (for the funding?) when they are not up to the required standard. And as I have said and others upthread have said too, there is vast evidence that pupils with C grades come out of many subjects at A Levels with a U, or possibly an E, and that is only achieved after many retakes. Who wants their 18/19 year old to be in that position, especially when the evidence so clearly predicted that liklihood?
So parents needs to accept that A Levels might not be for their child. And the OP needs to congratulate her DC on their achievement and to address this issue in a positive way, so the DC does not feel they have failed, because A Levels are the only way. They are not the only way. Finding the right way forward at this point is the key thing, and having a parent who demands access to an A Level course, because that is the only type of course they value, is not going to be helpful for this family.

A levels are not an open access course

But they are chocolatewombat. I have just been looking at the leaflet that dropped on my mat a few days ago ( postman delivered it).Its about day and evening classes offered by the local FE College and AE Centres.

The starting age for enrollment on these courses is 16. There are no pre requirements in terms of examinations. There is no acceptance or offer of a place. You enrol and pay the fee. Consessions apply - under 19, over 65 ( on pension credits and various benefits) are free.

Biology, Chemistry, Physics English , Maths and History are offered. Different centres on different days. They seem to be mostly day courses
(although some are night classes).

So, if I had the time and inclination - or my DC had siuch an inclination - they could enrol regardless of GCSE attainment . As long as the classes do not clash ( and they do not), I or my DC could easily take 3 A levels over two years starting in two weeks time ( As and then A2).

I can also see an access to HE course which states " normal" entry would be over 18 but having taught on this course, I know expceptions are made - usually for young girls who have got themselves in the family way (sorry to be so coy) and cannot go back to take courses at school)

But without concerning oneself with the last option - 3 A levels via day classes in an FE or AE centre, perfectly doable and no one interviewing or saying you cannot have a place.

If that isnt open access, then what is?

Skinned, are you disputing what the previous poster said, which you quote?

Ie that in sciences, someone starting with a C is highly likely to get a U and at best an E after a lot of retakes?

Are you disputing the statistical evidence,mover many years and cohorts of students which shows this to be true? Are you saying that the the C grade son of the OP is somehow different? In what way is he being denied equality of access?

Personally, as a parent, I would be pretty angry to discover as my child reaches 19 with 2 U grades, that their outcome was what everyone expected given their starting point, but they had been welcomed onto the A Level course anyway. To me, equality of access means everyone has access to something SUITABLE for them. A Levels have never and will never be appropriate for everyone.

I teach in a sixth form by the way, and we have a blanket GCSE grade C entry which must include maths and English . Entry is by interview and we do sometimes ( for lack of space) turn kids down but largely its not because they do not have a grade B in the chosen subject. Once in, all subjects are open to all pupils. So not everywhere is the same, so clearly unequal opportunity.

It was not until I read here I realised so many areas had a different policy.

However I am fairly sure AE and evening class policy has not changed nationwide.

How is your son feeling OP? I hope he isn't too downhearted as his results are great.

Has he given any thought to BTEC or retakes with some new subjects mixed in for variety?

How do you feel he worked last year? Do you think he gave it his all or cruised along a bit?

What isnt available in AE centres I notice is BTEC. You can take an A level part time day or night classes but you cannot take a BTEC.
You can also do art A level I noticed, looking through now.

Skinned, but those courses are adult education courses. They are not aimed at 16 year olds and they are generally not aimed at people wanting to study 4 AS Levels, then 3 A2s followed by university.
If you were able to access the results for students who took 4 subjects at AS over a year, who were 16 when starting and who had Cs at GCSE, you would find very poor outcomes. Of course the profile of people at such colleges, are not your 16 year old who want a to do a straight forward 6th Form.

And when the leaflet says the courses are available, I expect you WOULD find some kind of entry requirement on investigation. A 16 year old would NOT just be signed up onto 4 AS levels, with a few Cs, or no qualifications at all. (Which is what you are implying.....do you seriously think the college would take ANY 16 year old onto 4 AS levels regardless of qualifications at all....ie with perhaps a couple of F or G grades....which is what true open access would require). The person with low or no grades (which many adults entering HE often are) is first offered a lower level course, or perhaps allowed to take 1 A Level. I really don't think the college is suggesting absolutely anyone from any background can start a traditional 4 AS level course. And I find it hard to believe that you as a teacher think they do that either!

Ie that in sciences, someone starting with a C is highly likely to get a U and at best an E after a lot of retakes?

I have not in my personal experience found that to be the case. I am not disputing statistics as I do not have any. I only have my 20 years of teaching experience - teaching A level - that I can go on. Since I regulalry teach pupils with a raft of grade C GCSE passes ( as well as those with higher ones) , I have not really found any significant differences as a result of GCSE grades. They all struggle and they all have to leap to the A level standard. Factors such as motivation are more significant.

Skinned, but those courses are adult education courses. They are not aimed at 16 year olds and they are generally not aimed at people wanting to study 4 AS Levels, then 3 A2s followed by university

No they are not I agree but that is not my point. The fact is these courses exist. There is no one stopping a 16 year old taking them or stacking up a raft of them in their own personal timetable! Most importantly no one saying they cannot have a place on the courses.

So, it is possible to do it. I have seen it done. Certainly if my DC were unable to secure an A level place on a course in sixth form or college, I would certainly look at this as an alternative.

I'm sure your college track the outcomes of students with different starting points, so you could easily see the differences.
I would suggest it is extremely unusual these days for schools and colleges to take the approach you are saying yours do, of a few Cs being sufficient for access to any A Level course, and I think it is with good reason that the majority have minimum grades of B or A in the subjects chosen for A Level. I would not be keen for a child of mine to take A Levels in a place where there was such a range of starting points.
It seems odd to me that as a teacher of 20 years, you thought that most places were operating a similar system of entry to the one you describe. Surely even within your college, there is a regular review of what the entry criteria should be and discussion of the pros and cons of different approaches. Such things are widely covered in the educational press too. And it seems odd to me that you think the other college you describe would be allowing absolutely anyone onto a standard 4 AS level course, because of a leaflet you have read.....I'm sure that if you think about it and looked into it more,you would see that a standard 4 AS level course can never be truly open access.

Anyway, the OPs child lives somewhere where there IS a requirement and he has not met it. He would not be accepted onto A Level courses in most places. However, all is not lost by any means. There will be a way forward for the boy, which can open doors into the future. His parents and he needs to be positive and proactive in finding that way forward. I hope they can access some good advice from the school and find something that works well for them and feel positive about it.

Just want to tell the OP, my DS has just accepted a place on an advanced diploma course to study engineering and science instead of doing A-levels. He chose and applied for the course himself after discussing what subjects he would need to study with the course director of the course that he eventually wants to study at University.

He has been in contact with the University of his choice over the past 2 years because we had the ridiculous issue of his school not allowing him to do Advanced maths and Physics because the classes clashed and there was no room for another Ad math class because there weren't that many who were sitting it. He couldn't study Physics at A level if he didn't sit Ad Math... After lots of negotiation with his tutors he sat triple science and higher math but despite getting an A* in Physics, they wouldn't let him do Physics in 6th form because he didn't have Ad math (thunk!)

The course director told him that on that particular course, they preferred students who hadn't gone the traditional route because they tended to have more practical experience and they found that they struggled less with the transition to completely independent study. It was the course director who recommended the advanced diploma because they would have nearly twice as many lab hours and practical training than the courses that his school offered. We live right next to the Uni so a lot of the lecturers are familiar with the local schools and what they offer, so thanks to that knowledge DS was able to make a decision that should suit him down to the ground.

And when the leaflet says the courses are available, I expect you WOULD find some kind of entry requirement on investigation

There isnt. I still teach night classes for extra money. The course is advertised. The prosepective student enrils, pays their fee, turn up. I turn up. I teach. At the end of the year they take the exam ( or not if they are there for interest only). Whilst I have never had many 16 year olds over the time, I have had the odd one or two. Most do full time or day classes. Mostly they are adults at night but it is possible, that is what I am saying.

There is no other criteria for taking an A level in AE day or night. In fact night classes are more popular than day for obvious reasons ( adults tend to work day time).

I am not suggesting it as being the best way or even suitable for all but it is available.

I'm sure your college track the outcomes of students with different starting points, so you could easily see the differences.

Yes, indeed they do and there are no significant differences in grades attained or destinations. But this isnt about me or my school.

I am glad the OP has been sorted . That makes this thread somewhat redundant now.

Surely even within your college, there is a regular review of what the entry criteria should be and discussion of the pros and cons of different approaches. Such things are widely covered in the educational press too. And it seems odd to me that you think the other college you describe would be allowing absolutely anyone onto a standard 4 AS level course, because of a leaflet you have read.....I'm sure that if you think about it and looked into it more,you would see that a standard 4 AS level course can never be truly open access.

a) in the case of AE I know it is non selective - completely self selected by those who enrol. But AE does not account A level passes the way schools do. There isnt a league table in that way. Four AS/A levels would be possible if you wanted to enrol - class by class.

b) I am on the academic board at school and frankly we have not had such reviews. The system has worked , so we have not fixed what is not broken.

c) I cannot comment on other schools and colleges really. I am aware of some who are very selective but their results have never seemed to be better than ours (league tables). We have often taken the kids they turned down. Having said that I know at least one other school who takes pupils in the same way as we do. How pupils select us or our competitors I am not sure, probably on availablity of subjects and nearness to home?

I don't think it was the OP who is sorted, but someone trying to encourage her about other options.

I really don't think your ref to the AE college is valid. As you say yourself, there are very few 16 year olds, and clearly fewer still taking a standard 2 year course of 4 AS followed by 3 A2 and entry to university. Additionally, there seems to be no evidence of 16 year olds doing this and then performing sufficiently in 3 A2s to access worthwhile courses. So, I really don't think it is a close enough comparison to be able to say A levels are truly available to anyone.
And how unwise would such a college be, to just take any 16 year old with absolutely no qualifications onto 4 AS Levels, without spelling out what their chances of success were....would seem negligent to me, rather than something to be paraded as the positives of open access.

Anyway, I am off and wish the OP all the best in finding a way forward with this.

I really don't think your ref to the AE college is valid. As you say yourself, there are very few 16 year olds, and clearly fewer still taking a standard 2 year course of 4 AS followed by 3 A2 and entry to university. Additionally, there seems to be no evidence of 16 year olds doing this and then performing sufficiently in 3 A2s to access worthwhile courses. So, I really don't think it is a close enough comparison to be able to say A levels are truly available to anyone

I grant that there arent many 16 year olds in AE classes but then they do not need to be since we will take them on A level courses witrh grade C anyway.

If you take pupils who have A at GCSE and those with C grades too, it radically alters the way that you can teach and the pace of progress of the class. This has to be considered by schools and colleges too, who want to be able to teach an academic course to academic children. There will always be a range of abilities, but just as universities set grade boundaries, so do schools and colleges offering A Levels, so that everyone on the course has a realistic chance of success and can progress at a speed appropriate for the rest of the group*

I am sorry but I find this a little insulting. Do you think I am such a chump that I do not know what has to be done to teach in a broader ability setting?

The thing is, chocolate wombat, I DO IT. I not only do it, I seem to do it successfully. As do my colleagues. We do not have to make excuses or excuse ourselves by refusing to take pupils who do not have A or B grades because we are afraid we wont be able to teach them, or advise their parents they may not get good grades.

We teach them. Most of them get good grades and go on to their first choice university or college. The grades are respectable (mine certainly are and most students will get AAB or ABB or similar profile across all the sciences (which is where I teach). But we are not highly selective and many of the students arrive with grade C passes at GCSE. Most of them come to us I guess because they wouldnt be accepted at your college or ones like it, chocolate wombat.

Some may not get top grades but it will not be because they have grade C passes at GCSE. Most do well and a lot do very well and mostly our students aquit themselves well and we hold our own against our more selective competitors in the league tables. I just found this thread surprising and saddening. I had not realised how unusual my school was.

It surprises me that so many posters here share your position. I had not thought my school was "odd" in any way. We have a set of entry criteria - grade C passes at GCSE including maths and English.You get that and you are guarentted a place. The kids who struggle are those we take who have a D at GCSE (usually in English or maths or both). We do not take many such pupils but those we take do seem to find it harder. But then they are not only taking a standard A level course, they are re taking GCSE as well. I am not saying all the pupils are grade A students , some are, some are Oxbridge material too, but we also have those who get three decent A levels and go off to an ex poly or an old teaching college and get very good degrees there . We do not fob them off onto BTEC.

monkey That's great that your DC has received such excellent advice. And sorry to hear about his school timetable being so ridiculous!