9 GCSE'S grade C, no A level place

[FrancesNiadova]

My DS has got 9 GCSE grade C' s including maths, Eng. Lang, physics, biology & chemistry. He's 2 marks off a B in 1 subject so we're having it re-marked.
He's been told that he can't do A levels & will have to do a year's re-sits. I don't remember it being like this when I did my A's, or my degree, grade C counted as a good, "O," level pass!
Is anyone else experiencing similar barriers being put in their way?

He wants to do the 3 sciences & go on to something like BioChemistry.

I think that is the problem, for sciences every college I know asks for at least a B in the science subjects.

I know there have been a lot of problems at home that could have effected results but in sciences this does indicate gaps in knowledge which need to be made up.

OP for costs/fees

At the moment if you are under 24 you are fully funded for a 'complete level 3 qualification' - that is 3A Levels or one BTEC extended diploma. People can take additional qualifications within that, so can take 4 A Levels or a BTEC extended diploma and an A Level alongside, but once they have the complete 3A levels funding stops and it becomes a loan. This is why students either repeat AS levels or swap to BTEC after AS Level - they get the funding, where as if they get 3 grade E A Levels they lose the funding.

Further to sashh, also a Btec does not carry the same number of UCAS points as an A level and many universities do not make UCAS points offers anyway ( not to mention may well de select simply because the right qualification - i.e. A level - isnt there.) So its not straight forward B Tec is as good as..... It will limit the course you can choose at university and limit your choice of university (or go at all)

From a personal point I have/ will make all my DC take A level. I do not like B tec. It limits career choice if chosen early (i.e. at16/18). People do not like this said but it is true. I state that up front so that you know.
Yes, you may be able to retrace your steps and go and complete later on as an adult returner. But not everyone does that and its not always financially viable..

As I said before, I have and regularly do take students with a raft of grade C's at GCSE and they make good A levels and good universities in many cases. There are routes at this point for those who do not or who want something different, so all is not lost (a foundation degree is often better than a Btec or HNC). Not all schools and colleges are so obsessed by getting top grades at A level that they refuse to take students with less than A* -B. Many may, but not all.

The usual route pushed for students who have less than this is B Tec. If your DD is not offered Btec its because the school is probably oversubscribed having shoved a lot of its "failures" ( i.e. didnt get Amazing A*'s ) there and filled up the course...... so they say re sit - or they feel that the DD is "academic" and doesnt want to let them be forced into options that might not suit.

When I was at school there were still O levels and CSE. Where I lived there were still grammar schools and Secondary Moderns. Herein lies the tale. A CSE grade 1 was supposed to be equivalent to an O level. My school told me that for 3 years. They didnt do O levels in my school, only CSE. (I came into the school late and there were no places at Grammar school for me to go there). However, I was told, if I did well at CSE and got grade 1 (because it was equivalent and I only needs a grade 1 in my CSE in the subjects I wanted to take ( and a minimum of 5 CSE grade 1 altogether including maths and English Language) I would be allowed to take A level and go on to university if I wanted.

It was only in the last week before I completed my exams that one teacher admitted the truth. A CSE was not equivalent to an O level. It had parity of esteem". It would be on the behest of the grammar school if they allowed me to take an A level on the basis of a CSE grade 1. They usually did not. They usually required at least an O level grade 3 ( that would be probably an A or B now as in my day even O levels were marked on a range of grades 1 - 6 and a CSE was seen as "around the same on a good day" as an O level grade 6 ( and 7 .8 and 9 were "fail") . The following year they changed the grade system on my board to ABC at O level (and D and E were "fails").
A Btec has parity of esteem(that just explains how it worked).

I got 9 CSE grade 1's - Maths, English, History, Geography, RE, Biology, Chemistry, Physics abd Art. I also passed an O level in English Language (which I got at O level grade 3).

Sure enough, the Grammar school told me I had to either go to college and take Btec or I would have to re sit all my CSE's and get O levels.

I know this scenario so well. In the end I went to another college and took A levels, passed, went to university and got a degree. Yes, I did have to work hard because the CSE was not good enough and I did a lot of running to catch up, but I do think it was the best thing.

It may not have seemed so at some points though. When I left university there were no jobs. I went into industry at a fairly low grade (seems like a failure doesnt it?) and my employer sent me on a B.tec. It was very easy for me and I got distinctions. For the next 6 years that Btec gave me a career. However, Btec was limiting. You could only attain a particular grade in the industry and organisation with a Btec. There was a bar. To progress, you needed a degree. Suddenly my "useless degree" was useful because it was a must have to progress.

At that particular time I started a family. When I started work again I went into teaching and of course a degree was a must have. Had I take the B Tec and work route, the degree (nor university) I went to would have been open to me. I would also have found myself side tracked and dead ended in my career (which nearly happened).

My brother on the other hand went Btec and he is now stuck in a technicians job and often says " I cannot progress because I do not have a degree". Taking one as a mature student means leaving his employment (and he has a family too) and he simply cannot afford it financially.

The moral here - and the reason my DC will not take B Tec is simple: Never under estimate how important is an academic path, even if it doesnt initially look it or a different route looks equivalent.

Now of course the options have to be assessed by the OP and her DC, not me, or any of the rest of us. You need to understand where each option will take you and what the limitations are.

sorry about the wierd punctuation etc. My PC is not working properly.

this is an independent view of BTEC entry to university. If you check the tariff table you will see that BTEC at D, D, D has the same weighting as A, A, A at A level.

I have a HNC, a degree and I teach....not sure that my HNC (shows my age ) has ever slowed down my career

You had to take a degree cricket balls - acknowledge it. What if you had not been able to do so because of financial or other constraints? Lets get truthful and real here.

In the "old days" if you had a HNC, you couldnt then take a degree unless you paid for it all yourself or had your HNC paid for by an employer ( as I bet you did - as I did). But a HNC or HND is not a degree and a B Tec is not an A level and we need to accept and make that clear, otherwise people may not be able to make the right decisions.

I do not think that these days a Btec or HNC/D is the way to go.

Better by far to get a couple of A levels (even low grade ones) and take a degree. It may be " devalued" but everything is so devalued now that a dgeree is essential.

If one of my DC ends up being weak at school for whatever reason I would still get them on A levels and I would get them onto an FdA . Most foundation degrees have a direct access to university at third year level to complete an honours degree. It can also be used to take on a Masters degree often with a couple of years work experience. There is a back door into everything that will go straight into the main entrance , without getting stuck in the out house (so to speak).

I would shun anything to do with Btec or vocational routes. I say that having got the damn thing myself. Its never been that useful.

Every parent has to know the options because their DC cannot at their ages know them.

I have never said a BTEC is an A level, it's a different qualification that is equivalent to A levels and should never be looked down on.

I paid for my degree as do every other student. Not sure why this is relevant?

It is truethat it is poss to go to Uni with a BTEc. however, it is not possible to get onto the most competitive places on the most competitive courses with a BTEc. It is true that BTEc should not be looked down on, but it should also be understood that it is not an equivalent qualification in the eyes of the more academic institutions.....and there is a reason for this.....those taking it, tend to be less academic.
The fact that people could do A Levels with 4 Cs at GCSE back in our day, does not mean that should happen now. GCSEs and A levels have changed. There has been grade inflation. Evidence strongly suggests that someone starting from a C (and actually a B too) is unlikely to do very well at A level. It is absolutely not in the interests of candidates to start a course they are extremely unlikely to achieve a useful grade in, or to hide this information from them. Failing or achieving grades which will not open any doors is demoralising and a waste of a year or two.

Many places these days require an A in order for someone to continue to A Level. Someone with a clutch of Cs really is not an A level student. A BTEc would be more appropriate. We need to get beyond the idea that Everyone must do A levels.....only right for some people.

So yes you can ring around and see if someone will accept DC. Most places will not (for a good reason) and if somewhere does, before accepting, I would look very closely at the drop out rates from that institution and the results achieved and where pupils go after leaving. Don't think just in terms of A Levels, but exactly where pupils with the profile of your DC go, with BTECs or A levels and beyond.
And be willing to really ink about if A Levels are right for DC, rather than just being determined to get child onto a course.

But the B tec takes you nowhere. Thats the bottom line. In this day and age jobs are few and life is competitive. Most employers are not interested in it. You may as well leave with GCSE and get a job in Tesco's. The career path will be the same.

Lets all just get honest here.

btw, chocolate wombat, the drop out rates at my school are very very low. Last year no one dropped out.The year before one girl dropedout after AS
( went to do a Btec and dropped out of that too). The pass rate at A2 l;evel is99%. 255+ are A8 -A grades off the back of those grade C's.

You should never write kids off in the way you want too. It seems to me you are simply doing what the old grammar schools did - deciding who is good enough and who is not and saying " no" to all the rest.

I believe everyone should have a chance to do what they want - or to try and we shouldnt be telling them what they should do.

It was what was tried with me. if I had not have kicked the doors in , I would never have had any career and I would have gone through life even more bitter than I am ( bitter at that SM school and the grammar school who tried to direct me to " a practical route").

Op needsto find out what her DC wants and then do what is necessary to get there. There is no barrier that cannot be gotten around in education.

Skinnedflowerpot, it is great that the drop out rate is low at your school and that some people go onto get As at A Level from a C at GCSE (I think that is what you were saying)
However, statistically it is absolutely true that people starting from C grades at GCSE with A Levels do poorly. Of course there will always be some who buck the trend, but the statistics are very very clear, which is why schools and colleges set the minimum entry requirements. I hold to the point that it does 16 year olds with C grades, no favours at all, to be allowed to enter A Level courses, under the impression that they are likely to do well......because the vast majority won't.
And whilst your place might have a low drop out rate, everyone considering post 16 education of any type, should be looking at drop out rates, the no.s that achieve different grades on different courses and subjects, the academic profile of the intake and detinations of leavers. This all helps to inform parents and students about whether the institution or course is suited to them.
If you look wider than your place, you will see that the no.s who go onto complete A2 from C grades at GCSE are pretty low and that those who achieve grades that will open doors are low too.
Personally, I think that achieving an E and a U or 2xE after 2 years (or often 3 years due to re sitting a year, which is common for those with low starting points) is not worth it. Whilst 2xE was a reasonable achievement and could get you somewhere 20 years ago, it is not very helpful today. I really think we have to accept that degrees and A levels are not for everyone. If we continue to push the weaker students onto A Levels, then they will continue to take the low valued degrees, which are basically worth nothing in a competitive labour market.

And finally, I don't think it is correct to say that everyone should be able to do whatever they want, regardless of their chances of success. Resources are limited. It is wasteful to send people onto courses that are not suitable for them. I think there does need to be some element of flexibility, but minimum requirements are there for a good reason.

It is truethat it is poss to go to Uni with a BTEc. however, it is not possible to get onto the most competitive places on the most competitive courses with a BTEc.

It is not possible to get on the most competitive courses or places with A Levels at grade E either.

But some students I taught recently have got on to midwifery courses with BTEC - one of the most competitive courses there is.

BTW it is BTEC, not Btec, Btech, BTEc.

I was forced in to A Levels and it was a complete and utter waste of 2 years of my life.

When I began my career I was sent on BTEC National day release and then on to HNC.

HNC/HND can all be 'topped up' to a degree. I also know someone who went straight from HNC to a masters degree. Highly unusual but possible.

It was only in the last week before I completed my exams that one teacher admitted the truth. A CSE was not equivalent to an O level. It had parity of esteem". It would be on the behest of the grammar school if they allowed me to take an A level on the basis of a CSE grade 1. They usually did not. They usually required at least an O level grade 3 ( that would be probably an A or B now as in my day even O levels were marked on a range of grades 1 - 6 and a CSE was seen as "around the same on a good day" as an O level grade 6 ( and 7 .8 and 9 were "fail")

This just does not make sense, you must have been on another planet to not know CSE and O Level were not the same.

Grade 1 CSE was equivalent to grade C or 3 O Level (some boards used 1-6, some A-E prior to 1975), but it was not the same, this is why when both were converted in to GCSE the grades were A-G.

There were also many more subjects available at CSE than O Level eg 'commercial arithmetic' was offered at my school alongside O Level and CSE maths.

I think basis what your children WILL do on a system in place 30 or 40 years ago is crazy.

For some subjects A Levels are the best route, for others BTEC is better. If you are going to uni for art your A Level grades are fairly pointless a sit is your portfolio that will get you entry.

I would shun anything to do with Btec or vocational routes. I say that having got the damn thing myself. Its never been that useful.

Yet for me it was the most useful qualification I ever did.

I think a lot of this is about managing expectations, of both parents and pupils.
Yes, of course an E grade at A level doesn't get you onto a competitive course at a highly regarded Uni. We know that. Many people also know that if you start A Levels from C grades, the likely outcome is E at A level. However, many people do not seem to understand that, or have it explained to them by colleges and schools. And then they are disappointed about the options available to them post A level, because they believed doing A Levels meant you could go to a good Uni, or that there was a good chance of high grades.
There are wide ranging views of BTECs on here, from them being not worth the paper they are written on, to being the key to a career. I think both can be true.....if someone has an idea of the career they wish to pursue, a BTEC could be perfect if it is respected by that industry. Perhaps they are less useful for the person who does not know what they want to do and wants to just use them as an academic currency in the way people often use A Levels....because their value outside of their particular focus, is low. Employers in non-related subjects don't tend to value them, in the way they might still value non-related A Levels.

The child with a clutch of C grades has done better than many people who have not achieved the magic C. Having these 'pass' grades at GCSE will always help. However, these days they are in a bit of a hinterland....the grades are not high enough to do A Levels, but feel too high for some of the other options.

Re-sitting is an interesting one too. Most people will eventually scrape the few extra marks needed for the next grade if they keep re taking,because eventually they will get a paper which favours them. However, evidence suggests that those who only achieve the minimum grade requirement through a number if resits, is less successful than someone who got the requirement first time round.....not surprising really, when you think about it.
So yes,MIT is worth resisting to get from a D to a C, to be over the magical boundary. However, if another year of study is needed to scrape into B grades to access A Level courses, one has to wonder if this is the best course of action. Will they then need another 3 years, including some resits to scrape some passes at A Level?

I have always been told the general rule to predict grades is that you drop a level from GCSE to A level.

So A* at gcse = A at A-Level
A gcse = B at ALevel
B gcse = C ALevel
C gcse = D ALevel

So you can understand why a school would not want to take somebody who got C's at gcse, they are likely to get D's at A Level

sashh - a CSE grade one has never been the equivalent of a GCE O level Grade C or grade 6 or anything else.

They were neither the same ( as you rightly say) nor equvalent ( as you wrongly indicate). Equivalent being equal .

It had "parity of esteem" That is it was recommended that they been seen as equal .

Of course you may have been told this but on the planet where I went to school, the SM school never told me or my parents that a CSE was not equivalent - had they done so my parents would have been far more pro active in moving me to a different school where I could do O levels. They were promised from the outset that CSE would be "equivalent" and I could go to grammar school and take A levels and go on to university - and of course that was plainly untrue. Such is education.

What gets to me here is that exactly the same process is being engaged in on this debate between BTEC and A level - the idea that they are equaland that someone can do a Btc because they are not A level material and it will not hinder them .... yeah , like it wont!

B Tech ( however you want to spell it and I dont care, a btec is a BTec is Btec or even a B Tech or even BTEC) has parity of esteem. It does not have equivalence.

The problem is that it is no good doing a BTEC if you need an A level to persue a career.

The key is either knowing what you want to do, or if you do not know, keeping the options open, which a vocational qualification does not do.

The real point for the Op here I think is that she needs to understand what she is being advised for her DC and should not be fobbed off if its not what she / her DC wants or needs.

You will be doing your dc a huge disservice with that attitude skinned - A levels are a stepping stone to university, that's all - there are very few careers which only require A levels. If you don't want to go to university there is no point doing a levels, do an apprenticeship instead. Similarly BTECs can be seen as stepping stone to university. Probably not the more competitive courses at the more highly regarded institutions, but I suspect you'd be rather surprised at some that do accept them - there are students currently at RG institutions who got in with BTECs.

As a degree route they shouldn't be written off. As a degree route failing your a levels will write you off though.

Actually OldCatLady, that really isnt quite it. I have a very old set of prediction graphs which converts GCSE to A level grade. Its a points score conversion over all grades and its very approximate anyway.

As someone who does teach theseno hopers ( for want of a better description) and who teaches A level ( and I have taught BTEC in the past) and have done for 20 years, I am often more interested in other factors when predicting the liklihood ofsuccess at A level. I am also more interested in the actual marks rather than grades to be truthful. I am interested inhowthey may work, their motivation and what they want to do. Motivation is very important often. I can teach if you really want to learn.

A student presenting with a grade C one or two marks below the grade boundary is no lesser ability than one who gives a B one or two marks above the boundary to be honest.

Titchy - one of my DC has already gone to university and has a 1st class hons degree. Two ( twins) are in year 10 ( starting GCSE on the academic route ) and the other is about to start senior school.

My attitude has served me personally well in getting and keeping a career along the way.

The proof of the pudding as they say is in the eating.

But this should not be about me or my attitude and how it doesor does not serve my DC.... so maybe we can all keep to the topic - helping the Op?

Skinned - encouraging a C grader to do A levels (and probably get very low grades in those) and stating that BTECs aren't worth the paper they're written on, despite them being a reasonably good route into HE, is not exactly helping the OP.

Neither may I add, is you talking about 'these no-hopers'......

And incidentally if one of yours has a desire to be an artist, or a nurse but neither are particularly academic, you might find these no-hope BTEC things are the only way into a career for them. So don't write them off entirely.

ChocolateWombat, given that most degree students have to pay their own tuition and living expenses these days I would consider that deciding to doa degree is a choice and notabout allocation of resources.

I have just paid out 27K for my DD1 to go to university. I am about to pay out another 15K for a MSc for her. In my day of course I got a grant and expectations were (rightly) different. But even then no one had the right to say I could not take A levels. At the end of the day most schools and colleges have minimum entrancerequirements of 5 GCSE maths and English included for A levels. That oft times tutors try to up that to B and A grades ( because they too are under pressure to get top grades at A level for the publicity) does not mean that other people should be discounted because they will not make your league tables look good. Thats what this is coming down to really - deciding an individals future because of your need to have a good league table position.

Of course there are always ways round. How about doing the old nightschool Op? Or rather doing the day class equivalents of an A level courses at a college or adult ed centre? Should be free as DC is under 19. Its also open access still. Sign up for each one you want to do.

Could even try for an Access to HE course and whilst it is said candidates must be over 21 I have often found that in fact many are not ( I have taught on them).

As I said, ways round everything.

But the OP'sDC as I read it has not been offered a BTEC, they have been told to re sit GCSE ( which I agree with chocolate wombat - it isnt worth it).

Her DC wants to do biochemistry. Therefore needs a coursefor that. Either A level or BTEc but I still think Applied Science BTEC would not be the course of choice. Thats my view.