Is it unusual for school to use a sixth former as a group leader on residential trip?

[VivaLeBeaver]

Abroad for a fortnight.

Large group of kids going and about 5 teachers to Italy. The group is going to be split into sub groups and each sub group has to stay with their group leader for stuff like underground, trams, through the airport.

One of the group leaders is a sixth former from the school. I'm not too bothered as I figure that they'll mainly all be together. They might be separated for small periods of time if they can't all get on the same train/tram/underground.

One of my friends is really worried from a safety aspect.

I can see where your friend is coming from, a well trained teacher would usually be preferable. Although I would assume the school has chosen a responsible Sixth Former to be the group leader, and it's likely they will be even more worried than the teachers- which may make them more diligent.

I,m sure they would not take someone on who was not interviewed etc.

I was hitchhiking decades ago working and very responsible by 16, 17, 18.

If she has a problem with it, she could just go and ask about it...!

Friend is an economics teacher. He goes to
Rome every year with school kids. He never mentioned any problems.

DS had been to Malta, Manchester, skiing on school trips, always came back in one piece

I think there are grave problems with asking a child at the school to be a supervisor on a school trip, especially a trip abroad. Although in law there is no minimum staffing level for trips, most local authorities produce guidelines on such activities. This is because there is a risk and it is totally unacceptable to load this risk on a child. It is the role of employees of the school. They can also appoint responsible adults to help who must be CRB checked. Most people would not think a responsible adult was a 6th former at the school even if they are very sensible. If I was the parent of the 6th former, I would not allow my child to be put in this position. They are in loco parentis whilst on the trip and can be sued if anything went wrong. The 6th former is not in a union. How would they defend themselves? This is utterly wrong and the Governors of the school should not allow this to happen. I would certainly take this up with the school. The 6th former should be allowed to go, but NOT as a supervisor.

I also think other posters have totally missed the point!!!

I'm reading it as the 6th former (s?) being in addition to the teacher, so that if there is ever an occasion when they do get separated into a smaller group - yes, maybe on public transport - there is a nominated person as the contact point - they will have the mobile number of the teacher in charge, for example, and, I wouldn't be surprised if they spoke the language or had done the trip before, etc. They won't be taking responsibility for the group per se, just in addition to the staff going - which strikes me as a very sensible arrangement.
Don't forget the 6th formers could be 18, and old enough to be a Leader.

The original post says one of the Group Leaders is a 6th former. This does not imply the 6th former is in addition to staff! The 6th former might be 18 but they are still at school, not in a Union and should not be considered to be an adult with suitable skill and knowledge to be a Group Leader! Going along as an extra is fine. I totally agree the 6th former should go. I very much doubt this would meet the supervisory requirements of the LA and it should not meet the supervisory requirements of the school and will be a BIG problem if there is a problem!

I was interviewed as a union representative many years ago because one of our schools killed 4 children when they were unsupervised and fell off the cliffs at Lands End. FOUR Children! The school had taken supervision very lightly and the supervising adults were not actually supervising. Nor had they given much attention to the close proximity of the cliff face. My LA wrote extensive procedures in line with Government policy about making sure trips took place but also making sure children were properly supervised. It is not fair to give this responsibility to a 6th former. It is plain wrong !

Obviously, we are all speculating, but I'm assuming that the teacher is in charge of say 10 or 12 dc, and has the additional help from a 6th former. For organisational purposes they are putting them into small groups of 5 or 6, but not planning for the smaller groups to be out and about on their own.
It works the same in all sorts of organisations, where you have "Young Leaders" theoretically in charge of a group, but at all time supervised by an adult. You get put in groups for things like 'Your turn to wash up' rather than - 'lead this group across the city unaccompanied, for the day'.

However, if the OP (or friend) have any reason to be unsure, then they will only find out by asking the trip organisers themselves.

There's usually a LA approved ratio (anywhere between 1:8 & 1:15, depends on age of students, riskiness of activities, & location). Private schools etc don't need to stick to this but usually do.

Most schools will err on the side of being over ratio, so take additional adults. This is handy in case, say, one student is hospitalised & needs a staff member with him - if your 4 staff & 40 students suddenly becomes 3 staff & 39 students, that's going to be an issue if the safe ratio is 1:10, so the trip is planned to have an extra adult body.

There's usually various other caveats, eg. I've taken my own dc on a school residential I've run, & it's meant I don't 'count' on the numbers as I'd probably rescue him first in an emergency.

The Sixth Former is probably an 'extra' adult. I'd agree with MillyMollyMandy that I would not want my 18yo in charge of a group & legally liable - there are plenty of qualified teachers who won't go anywhere near resi-trips for fear of possible consequences if an accident happens.

Fine (& great experience) if the Sixth Former is an extra pair of hands & never left in sole charge of students. Dodgy otherwise, definitely.

I agree it should be clarified by the OP. However a 6th form Group Leader on a trip abroad to Italy is not right! The term group leader is the key wording here and means something in law! It will definitely mean something if there is a problem. If this young person is an extra helper with NO responsibility then it is fine. If it is just washing up - fine. If they are there in place of a teacher or suitable employee it is not fine. There are numerous cases where poor supervision has been cited as to why children have died. This is why schools must follow strict guidelines on school trips. By the way, I am very pro school trips, but very against them being run without proper planning and staffing.

OP. I hope the school is having a parents' meeting about the trip. Your friend should raise concerns there. He/she should get hold of the LAs Educational Visits Policy Document and check the requirements in that. Or the Government's advice if it is an Academy.

The groups of kids are between 8 - 10 in size. The sixth former is in charge of one of these groups.

All groups will be going to the same places to visit, etc. but once at the attraction they're visiting may split up and they're going to have to get on different public transport to get places in the city as they're not going to get 60 odd kids on one bus, etc.

I would assume the sixth former has mobile phone numbers for the teachers and is also sensible. But yes, am surprised the school allowed it. I know the sixth former can contact a teacher if needed but yes like MillyMolly said its the chance of there being a split second misjudgement which is a possibility.

We had the meeting about the trip the other night which is where we first learned about the situation. They used the term group leaders. And gave lists of who was in which group. The sixth former is definitely in charge of a group, not assisting a teacher with a group.

How old are the students? If we're talking about teenagers, who have a sixth former with them for the short periods while they are exploring a site or travelling on public transport, I'd be OK with a responsible 17 or 18 year old performing that role. These are presumably students who already travel to and from school etc on their own, without an adult helping them. It would be different if it was primary school children.

If "group leader" has a legal definition, perhaps they just need to call them something else.

I'm sure the school will have risk assessed this. Just ask why they feel the sixth former is a suitable person. Fwiw my dd is 16 and is certainly capable of being responsible for a group. Through church particularly she is experienced in working with groups of kids. The sixth former may have been leading groups before - guides/scouts/D of E whatever. They may also already know the location well.

Kids are aged between 11-16.

Dd is really sensible anyway and to be honest when I was younger than her (13) my mum let me loose round Paris for the day with my twin brother so I think having a sixth former chaperoning them is an improvement on that!

This has nothing to do with the capability of the 6th former!!!! It is to do with the legal responsibility that goes with leading a group of children on a school trip abroad. They can be held personally responsible if something goes wrong with the group. They are not covered for legal representation as a teacher would be via a Union. You are all basing your posts on knowledge of sensible children but any school trip should have teachers, school staff or adult leaders. The school would be in big trouble if there was an accident whilst the 6th former was in charge. They need to find another adult. It is a trip to a foreign country and therefore has much greater risk than scouts or guides trips. You are comparing Apples and Pears. You also need to be aware of the severe views the courts take if negligent supervisors on school trips. Why would a school put a 6th former in this position? Maybe a parent could step in? Is the 6th former CRB checked? You cannot get round the responsibility of a group leader by calling them something else !!!! It is the role they are performing that counts!

Actually I agree with millymolly and i a VERY lax parent. The 6th former is leaving themselves open to all sorts of risk, including being found negligent and sued personally if something happens. Teachers will be indemnified through the trip's insurance and their union membership will give them legal cover. D of E, Guide and Scout expeditions are similarly covered by the organisation itself. This seems to fall into a very grey area, however sensible the 6th former and kids on the trip are. School trips should always be planned on a worst case scenario, not on the basis that everything will probably be fine.

I agree with pps.

Would be much more concerned if I were the parent of this sixth former, than as the parent of one of the younger students in his/her group.

Totally not on to have a student as a Group Leader. If there are not enough staff to run the trip, they shouldn't be going.

Well this kind of thing used to be fine.

BUT I'm not sure it really complies with modern safeguarding requirements. Especially if the sixth former is 18 or younger.

I would be very worried about the school in general - if it can't afford proper staffing ratios - is it a private school on its last financial legs?

It is very different if it is your own children, or a group of Sixth formers being allowed to go around by themselves.

Not a private school.

No idea if sixth former is 17 or 18.

They go this weekend so no time to find anyone else I wouldn't have thought. My friend has talked to the school yesterday. They just said they're happy that the sixth former is sensible and that there will be minimal times when the sixth former and their group isn't with another group.

What Milly said. I do the ed visit admin at my school and we often take 6th formers as additional adults-not group leaders, especially not wandering around a city. Would not be happy if I was asked to do ed visit admin fir this or if I was a parent of either student.

I would be really worried if it was my DCs. I would be concerned about the insurance coverage too.
My DD is going away with a choir group this summer, ages 10-18, and they have to be with an adult leader even when wandering around small towns. That is even the 18 year olds. This is dictated to by the terms of their insurance.
This is the advice given by one school about using sixth formers:
"Senior students may be used as extra monitors to support adults, but they should never be left
in complete charge, nor given any responsibility that could impinge on safety.
A rule of thumb is: am I according the students the care and the protection that I would give my
own child? "

So it is fine to use a Sixth former as a helper, but in my reading they shouldn't be supervising a group - or counted in supervision ratios.

What are these "minimal times"?

If it's say inside a museum, then they have probably not exposed themselves unduly.

If it's out on public transport (as suggested in OP) they are putting one of their pupils (the sixth former) in a horribly exposed position. If they are ignorant of, or wilfully ignoring, the legal ramifications of using non-teachers, then is their other planning sound?

But if it turns out that it is just 'useful extra pair of hands, but no supervising role' then it is OK (teachers' spouses something's go along in that role).

If they were 18 and not in school would people be seeing it differently?

On a gap year aged 18 I did very similar things. Ditto friends daughters at university.

An18 year old EMPLOYED whether on a gap year or not, fine. A sixth former, not an employee, not fine (it's the sixth former I'd be worried about).