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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

'State schools are creating amoral children'

718 replies

BurgenSnurgen · 15/05/2014 10:16

...because state schools are under so much pressure to improve results that there's no time to teach them right from wrong.

So says Chairman of the Independent Schools Association

Bit speechless really. It's giving me the absolute RAGE.

OP posts:
HercShipwright · 21/05/2014 18:19

He's wrong about MFLs anyway. So that's something. Some state schools do the IB - there is one MNetter who lives near me whose DD had to leave posh school to go to the local 6th form college to do it, because the posh schools don't.

Studying abroad is of course also the province of the monied - the fees are lower but you don't qualify for the loans etc so you either have to have the money upfront to fund your child, or you have to borrow at commercial, definitely pay back straight away, rates. Which is the main reason why DD1 can't even consider or aspire to going to the conservatoriums in Amsterdam or Florence which are apparently the very best places to study her instrument. :( It's doubly unfair of course because it means those who have, have the opportunity to get Higher Ed cheaper than those who have not.

Bonsoir · 21/05/2014 18:40

Extended stays in foreign countries are not always prohibitively expensive. There are exchange programmes that are quite reasonable. My DSS1 went to Melbourne for 7 weeks when he was 15 (during his summer holidays), lived with a family and attended school. It was rather a lot cheaper than taking him on summer holiday!

AmberTheCat · 21/05/2014 18:46

Thank you, rabbitstew - the hope that someone would finally enlighten me as to the proper way to eat asparagus has kept me going through several pages of this thread! I was about to give up and resort to google...

TheWordFactory · 21/05/2014 19:49

Herc he wasn't suggesting MFL's as something you'd be using on a day to day basis in your job, more that not knowing another language kind of marked you out as a bit insular IYSWIM. A bit uneducated particular to our European brothers and sisters.

Most of what he was talking about were things that were soft skills really. Ways in which you could show yourself as a member of the global community, with a knowledge of it and interest in it.

And whilst I don't imagine that not having access to any of these things would be definitive , I can see how together they produce a rather tempting package.

TheWordFactory · 21/05/2014 19:51

Bonosir I'm sure there are ways and means to sort extended trips.

But most students need to work during the Summer if they can, or at least keep spending to a minimum, and here was this guy saying 'get thee to Italy for three months and immerse thyself in the ways of the ancients Grin'

HercShipwright · 21/05/2014 20:01

Word, a lot of the very posh people I know view being fluent in MFLs with suspicion Grin Although never having travelled (the right sort of travel, shopping and museums etc in NYC not Disneyland, shopping and museums or skiing possibly in France, not eurocamp etc) is de rigueur. Familiarity with the classics is viewed more fondly than familiarity with German or Spanish. Being multi lingual is seen as perhaps trying a little too hard. Or worse.

Bonsoir · 21/05/2014 20:12

School aged DC aren't working for money all summer. The organisations I have dealt with all complain that British teens aren't up for the adventure. Finding an exchange partner in the UK is barely worth attempting.

TheWordFactory · 21/05/2014 20:14

Sorry Bonsoir I menat university students as I had assumed that was who this guy was refering to.

TheWordFactory · 21/05/2014 20:15

Maybe in the UK herc but certainly that aint the case in lots of Europe...which I guess kinda proves his point.

Bonsoir · 21/05/2014 20:18

Latin and Greek are not incompatible with MFLs. Though I know very few people in my generation with much Latin or Greek and very many indeed with 4, 5 or more MFLs.

I am gearing myself up to applying for DD's secondary education and one of my many criteria is how to ensure she does both German and Italian (in addition to French, English and Spanish she has already started).

Bonsoir · 21/05/2014 20:21

I think DC need to start doing all the things on your list before adulthood - DC in Paris certainly do. It's a badge of honour to do your first US summer camp before you leave primary school and that is just the first in a series of 7 or 8 overseas language/cultural residentials. DSS2 (16 - Y12) is going on his 9th (I think) overseas residential this summer.

HercShipwright · 21/05/2014 20:28

Oh, absolutely - the posh European people I know (not truly posh, in a European sense as there are so many minor/ex royals knocking around - my circle of acquaintance peaks at senior diplomat sort of level) all speak 3 or 4 languages perfectly, and all send their kids off to school for at least a year, maybe longer, to here, the US and probably another fashionable place too, as well as having university terms or longer in different countries). What is somewhat hilarious though is that they generally assume I am posher than some of my truly posh colleagues because of my cultural capital. They don't get that I'm...you know. Not One of Us. They get that I play instruments to a high level, know about the music environment in their countries, know about history and theatre, literature, art etc. I was in Prague a while ago for work, in the company of many colleagues from different countries and I idly wondered out loud if one of the windows in the buildings we were passing was the famous one. My British, minor public school educated, very snotty, colleague looked blank and asked me to explain. The others were all shocked. Grin

There are many things that any properly educated person should know. Few of which involve brains intelligence or other skills, to be honest. As our schools transition from cathedrals of learning to training boot camps for quite possibly low level mundane drone work, these things are being gradually (maybe not so gradually actually) lost. To all but the monied. IME state schools are very strong on morals and that sort of thing. But they are in danger of becoming weaker in the things that make life worth living (because that's Gove's vision). I think some posh schools are going the same way too, but it's cold comfort.

Bonsoir · 21/05/2014 20:32

The people I know aren't "posh" - just normally educated...

HercShipwright · 21/05/2014 20:36

Bonsoir - I imagine we are the same generation. My youngest DC is starting at secondary school in September, my oldest is just finishing Y11. I know quite a few people with Latin. And a small number with Greek.

The really golden language would be business Chinese (to my shame I don't know whether that is Cantonese or mandarin based). But it's very very difficult to get it right. The level of scorn at those who try and mess up is very high and generally not worth the risk.

HercShipwright · 21/05/2014 20:39

Bonsoir - I know some very posh people. I also know plenty of normal people, being one myself. I suspect our definitions of normal may not be identical though. Nor our definitions of posh. Grin

The fact that I am implacably wedded to the term, and the idea, is probably the biggest marker of my origins to be honest. Grin Especially since I've always spoken reasonably well due to singing training. I do swear like a navvy though. But then - so do many posh people!

Bonsoir · 21/05/2014 21:00

I have two close relatives with Mandarin. Not that it has served any practical purpose....

kinsorange · 21/05/2014 21:45

From what little I know, Mandarin is an almost impossible language. The one person I know who has no option but to try it, is unable to write his own address!

pippiLS · 21/05/2014 22:50

Thanks for the list Word.

Dapplegrey · 22/05/2014 07:21

Herc - so 'posh' people are abnormal, are they? Do you think 'oiks' are abnormal? I find your comment quite offensive tbh.

unrealhousewife · 22/05/2014 07:35

But going back to the source article...

I actually agree with the man. The State school system is spurred on by competition for results and saving money. This has permeated the system and we have transient teachers who need to perform, lots of young teachers because they are cheaper, a division between non teaching and teaching staff so support is downgraded and given less status. The moral attitude among peers is very much sink or swim. Go with the crowd or you get dropped. Think J'Aimee. Although I'm not a teacher so don't really know...

On the education side, they are taught to tests, not to enquire. There is no rote learning meaning they are constantly looking things up and not able to reach the point where they are armed with real knowledge with which to make their point. In primary school it is fine but in secondary the moral compass is very much askew.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 22/05/2014 08:35

Oh yeah... J'aime, State School Girl, that's called, right?

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 22/05/2014 08:36

Although I'm not a teacher so don't really know

You sure said a mouthful there!

Martorana · 22/05/2014 09:08

Unrealhousewife- can I ask what personal experience of state schools you have?

rabbitstew · 22/05/2014 09:52

If you ask me, the whole of society sets an amoral example to our children (or an immoral one...). Seems to me, I spent my childhood being brought up to behave with the utmost propriety, work hard, always be considerate of others, then went into the world of work and was expected to forget most of that if I wanted to progress. Where have we seen examples of moral behaviour in the world of finance or politics, recently???... In fact, what examples of moral behaviour have we seen anywhere? I certainly haven't seen evidence of the high moral standards of public schools anywhere - in fact, given the current media obsession with child abuse, quite the opposite. Muck sells. Morality doesn't.

Soveryupset · 22/05/2014 09:56

Going back to the OP, I really firmly believe that moral compass is learned at home, and if you have experience of both sectors you will know that there are "amoral" people in both sectors - that's just life. Money or class is not a guarantee of superior or inferior morality.

That doesn't mean there are not problems in both sectors. Smaller, less successful independent schools are struggling for pupils. State schools are struggling with cuts, a growing population and lack of new schools and resources. There is also an ethos problem in state schools, and in my opinion is due to the fact that the direction isn't one that is serving the general public, but more government targets.

This is indeed a political issue, but not one that is being addressed. The current department of Education seems to be going in the opposite direction - e.g. less funding and more targets. Everyone is under pressure and some of the more popular independent schools are thriving because of it. My eldest daughter is at one of those and there has been a huge surge in demand - and that's nowhere near London.

I think that says something about how unhappy many parents feel with the situation and do not have the power to change things as politicians are not listening to what parents want and need for their children.

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