Value added scores for independent schools

[papalazaru]

Is there a way to find these scores? I'm looking at different schools for my daughter who is currently in Year 5. When comparing the schools using GCSE results obviously you can rank them but if a school is highly selective with its intake then it follows that their results will reflect this. However, a school with a good value added will be making the most of their less able children.
Some schools I've looked at do publicise their value added but others don't. How can I find it out? Will I specifically have to ask?
Thanks.

talkin the boys may not be formally examined on English Lit or a History but they have been extensively covering both subjects in their daily Div lesson. My DS2, who's not a natural literature enthusiast by any stretch of the imagination, has talked and written with surprising competence and enthusiasm about a wide selection of authors ranging from early English, Shakespeare, French philosophers, the romantics, a broad selection of poetry, through to 20 th century authors, inspired he has voluntarily read books he would not normally even consider. It also doesn't seem to do their Pre U results any harm in both subjects.
In contrast DS1 a passionate and enthusiastic reader who of course sat GCSE Eng Lit has been put off well known classics and even reading slightly for life.

TheWordFactory, your dd's school sounds very similar in terms of intake:results to my ds's (above).

The funny thing is, staff and parents of the grammars like to brag that they have much better results than this independent - well, duh! You have 90% high attainers - as do the staff and parents at the highly sought after comp in another part of the county - which has 88% high attainers on entry, as opposed to 40% at the independent.

But actually, for both schools, only the 5 A-Cs is better, not the percentage of A/A* s overall, or the Value Added.

Oh, and I'd be surprised if the return to linear affected ds's more than the local comps; it's really likely to be much less affected.

For a start, they do no early entry, no resits (except, in the past for Maths, which will still be allowed), they do fewer qualifications overall, and they do full end of year exams under exam conditions every year from year 5/7 for newbies, whereas two of the comps I know of do tests at the end of each half term from year 7 but not end of year, so no being used to retaining stuff for longer than 7 weeks.

In all of the above regards, the grammars I know of are the same as the independent.

This school claims to have some of the best VA scores in the country, so explains it reasonably clearly:

www.dunottarschool.com/library/News_Items/what_is_added_value_final_version.pdf

I suggest that if a school isn't happy to show you their score, they may not score very highly...

I fear I agree that not doing Eng. Lit is a way of encouraging a love of literature. My son is doing iGCSE Eng Lit, and is studying To Kill a Mocking Bird in such detail that it is putting him off reading fiction.

You still don't need 12 though, TalkinPeace. My DD also did 2 choirs, MUN, Head of House, 2 instruments, singing, orchestra, string quartet, badminton squad, LAMDA, school play and numerous rehearsals for house plays, house music and house dance. We can all do lists!

I agree to a large extent about the no Eng Lit thing that they do at Win Coll. (Less sure about no history). I do think Div sounds fantastic and would be delighted to find a less selective (ds is bright, but not Win Coll bright) day school that had a similar offer.

Millymolly
I've no idea why she is doing so many - they slotted them all into the timetable easily enough for her and the rest of the upper sets. In part I do think its GCSEs they are less rigorous than they were when we used to sit 8 or 9 GCEs. Extra curricular has been utterly unaffected by the number of subjects. The school stopped early takes and retakes two years ago.

HmmOxford free ranging history topics in Div works as well as it does for English Lit. My other DC who is one of the 12 GCSE brigade (if you count Add maths which I am not sure I would) decided not to do History due to being bored with World War II. A shame and certainly would n't have happened with a Div like approach. I'm not sure why more independent schools don't adopt something like Div.

Hmm history (usually a specified period, I think DS is doing 18 th century history currently, although the don is free to do what ever he wants within the specified period) is studied extensively usually daily in the first three years at a Win Coll and boys sit internal history exams twice yearly. 25 boys did history Pre U last year and 19 got the equivalent of an A or an A*. As I said not doing it at IGCSE isn't doing them any harm.

It sounds fab. I wish I could have gone.

The thing that worries me about this value added thing is at what cost have these better than expected grades been achieved? There's a thread on MN about cheating in a MFL oral, I've not read all of it but there are posters reporting "cheating" in other subjects. Oxfordshire are putting a full time school nurse in all 34 senior schools at a cost if 1.5 million because of the rise in mental health problems. I can't help but think that this pressure to achieve beyond your predicted ability is coming at a cost.

At our Indie schoo lwe use MIDYS and ALIS as mentioned above. Round here it is the Grammar schools which enter pupils for crazy numbers of exams; we limit to 10, or 11 if they do Latin after school. Same at other (high performing) local Indies. Comps also seem to favour 14 or even more subjects for top sets. madness.

There's no doubt in my mind that Div is a wonderful alternative to GCSEs in history and lit. The way lit is organised and tested by controlled assessments is dire and adds nothing to the sum of human understanding of literature.

There is absolutely no reason why div can't be introduced in any school be it state or independent, it's no more expensive to teach, although I suspect it requires a greater degree of skill to teach it effectively. Im very surprised more independent schools don't do it. My science/math orientated DS has really benefited from it. I'm also unsure if parents who "expect" their DC's to do 12+ GSCE's would be happy especially as Eng Lit and history are not taken at GCSE. I frequently hear/read that Eng Lit is essential for entry into Oxbridge/RG Uni it even though it clearly isn't. Many are very surprised when I say my DS isn't doing Eng lit GCSE.

Eton don't do Eng Lit either, but Div is very popular. Boys choose 10 subjects (a mix of GCSEs and IGCSEs) and can drop one after a year if they want. 14 subjects sounds like an awful lot of work to me, it's not only lesson time but all the homework and studying too.

There is a reason why div can't be introduced in any school, be it state or independent... English public schools like Winchester have an exceptionally long history of placing a lot of importance on what other schools call history, RE and English literature. It would be a huge surprise for somewhere like Winchester not to be able to teach these subjects to an exceptionally high level. Most schools have to "prove" themselves in these areas, by forcing their students through public exams, because then there is some measurable evidence of the effect of their teaching. Only schools like Winchester can get away with not having to prove this at GCSE level and still have Oxford, Cambridge and the like believe this is not remotely an issue. In fact, in the distant past, when you went to Oxford to do a general BA, not a specific subject, it sounds to me like you went to university to do advanced "Div" plus the other classical subjects public schools have always been renowned for - Greek and Latin... Oxford and Cambridge may have modernised considerably, but their pasts are still closely intertwined with the ethos of the big public schools which fed boys to them for centuries.

Based on a small sample (one!) I would disagree with Talking. DD did poorly in the 11+ exam at the nearest super-selective, consistent with her relatively low CAT score, coming in the bottom third of the 1000+ applicants. She did not take SATs but was not an academic star at her Prep.

Five years later and grades for her 10 GCSEs should be at least as as good as the average for the Grammar, and she is confidently expecting to gain a place on a popular course at a good RG or equivalent.

Part is good teaching, and smaller class sizes, but a lot has been confidence building both by academic and extra-curricular staff. Learning support at her school has been fabulous, and indeed an eye opener for her to discover the problems some of the other pupils are struggling with. It has been lovely to see her start to believe that she can start competing academically and start having ambitions.

Her school takes a good proportion from the state sector at 11+ and based on coffee morning complaints about various tutors, my guess is a good proportion of those also tried Grammars and failed. Given results at her Indi are better than the Grammar I think it is reasonable to assume that the Indi is providing better value added. The Grammar, being free, will be far more selective.

The sad thing is that had my daughter remained in the state sector (leaving aside the fact that the state school she was offered was not one we applied to and was pretty troubled), given her low CAT score and relatively low attainment at 11+, could well have been given low targets and got lost.

rabbit that is very true.

Oxbridge et al don't worry about English Lit at Win Col and Eton because they know div is actually superior in those establishments to GCSEs.

However, many universities wouldn't have the same faith in an anonymous comprehensive in Hull.

"Because then there is some measurable evidence of their teaching"
This is the problem in education and many other areas we have to have easy but crude measuring tool so that value added scores can calculated.

You may be interested to know Indrid on Eton's website it clearly states that boys choose 10 (I)GCSE's leading to 11 (I)GCSE's because they do both Eng Lang and Lit.
I looked it up because a couple of friends with DS's at Eton were surprised my DS wasn't doing Eng Lit (I)GCSE.

We've become so obsessed with measuring things that we've forgotten to keep looking up to consider whether we are measuring anything worthwhile.

In my work our performance is constantly being measured, my boss is obsessed that we prove we're doing a good job. To achieve this I have to complete more forms to prove that Im using my time appropriately: doing the things that are measurable. I can spend an hour a day doing this. But as in education some things are unmeasurable and don't fit the box. These are often the things that actually make a difference of course.

Thanks for that happy I have to admit that I find the GCSE/IGCSE thing a bit confusing. I still tend to call them O levels, which doesn't help.

Regarding VA, measurements like these form part of everyday life, but if something can be measured it can also be massaged and manipulated. Personally speaking I can't see that it would feature that highly in my list of motives for choosing the right school.

rabbit that is very true.

My DD has spent much of this year doing controlled assessments and it seesm to me that they test very little understanding or love of the subject.

That's not to say a student doesn't understand and love it, but the test bears no relation to that.

And the constant stopping and starting makes for a very fractured course. God only knows what it was like then modules were the order fo the day!

What is this 'Div' please? I assumed initially it was 'Divinity'...

I agree with the poster who says comps put pupils in for more GCSEs than Independents - it's certainly true where I am.