Fed up with the education divide ?

[johnbunyan]

As a former Head of an independent school, I am fed up with the ideological divide in education, and want to start a national discussion on constructive ways to help the state and independent systems grow naturally together. I am secretary of a national group of independent day schools ( mostly the old direct grant schools ) and we look back to a time when there was much greater co-operation and a real sense of social mobility. Can we return to such a consensus ? I would love to hear ideas and start building towards such a consensus, since, as we approach the 2015 General Election, it will seem a long way away! I sense that many parents would like government and schools to work something out -and quickly -since the educational divide is simply not helpful to anybody - least of all the present generation. How many out there agree?

Nope I was replying to an over dramatic post further down and actually said "moving on" before providing non grammar related suggestions.

Tolstoy Sats aren't fair.

Actually neither are teacher reports as teachers and their expectations can vary hugely.

"Sorry but I honestly don't think non bright kids could pass the 11+. Have you seen the maths?I think bright kids lose places to other bright kids.More often than not those from better primaries state and private."

You are right.

These are the facts:

Grammars take in a disproportionate number of children from private prep schools. Some grammar schools take over 40% of their intake from private prep schools.

Nationally over 72% of children with grammar school places have been tutored outside the home.

As for children in the better primaries getting fantastic preparation for the 11, well my children's school is a highly rated inner city primary. My son, who is in year 5, is in the extension group for maths. He will sit a level 6 paper in the summer of year 6, and will be covering the level six content in year 6, but most of this will be done in the Easter and summer terms after entrance exams. The only way he will do the level six maths in time for grammar school exams is if we do it at home/send him to a tutor.

"What is the point of yet another anti grammar thread when there are far bigger issues at stake which have an impact on an awful lot more children."

I disagree. 1 in 20 children go to grammar school in the UK. These very bright children, and their super-involved and motivated parents are lost to the comprehensive system.

Everyone knows that the very best commercial institutions value their brightest and most hard-working staff because they know what an important contribution they make to the overall success of the organisation. A school is also shaped by the children (and the parents of those children) in it, and if some schools are deprived of the most talented and brightest children, then this will impact on the character and the atmosphere of the school, and on the aspirations of the majority of the children in them.

You need Level 6 maths for grammar school entry ? By October of Year 6?! The schools in our area don't enter any children for Level 6!
I asked a local primary about grammar school entry the other day. They said that they do nothing to prepare children (not surprised) and that it was unfair to prepare children as then children who had not been prepared would be disadvantaged.

In some areas state schools are expressly forbidden to prepare for grammar school admission.

1 in 20? Are you sure?

Get rid of grammar schools and private. Everyone goes to local comprehensive schools. Get rid of league tables. Smaller class sizes.

That should sort the divide.

But Mini your son has an advantage in that he is at a better primary,has access to level 6 work in primary when other perfectly able kids in lesser schools won't.

When he rocks up to secondary he has an advantage over all the kids from lesser schools as he will automatically go into higher sets and be stretched accordingly.Others just as bright but less privileged will be constantly paddling to catch up.But that is ok.

1 in 20. Not sure I go by those figures given how few areas even have grammar schools and in those that do many don't bother.

I don't think you need to be at level 6 to pass the 11+ do you?

And sorry just why should I as a super involved parent be held responsible for other kids?No thanks.I'm sick to death of battling for my own kids when no other buggar bothers but just whines.When they go to secondary I want to put my feet up thanks.

How exactly would 1 or 2 kids not being there have an impact on other kids?More importantly why shouldn't kids go to schools that suit them and not be held responsible for children they'll never meet?

Utter madness.

Thief thing is we all have a vested interest in the deduction of all children. Or at least we do if we care abut the society we want to live in, and the society we want our children to live in. Us,ni want a good education for my children- but I also want one for other people's children. Because frankly, I don't want to live in a society with a significant poorly educated underclass

Education. Not deduction.

Covering level 6 is an obvious advantage?A lot of the 11+ content is that which is covered in year 6 and involves speedy old fashioned recording.So if your kids are at a pretty mediocre primary gridding and chunking in a very laid back manner alongside taking a leisurely approach to covering topics and aren't into pushing the brightest you're much screwed given the 11+ is in the Sep of year 6.

Great Mart however we don't all feel the same and nor should we.

So are you saying that you don't care about how our society develops? Whether there are enough doctors and nurses and electricians and hairdressers and plumbers....

Bless you Retrobear - you are right. Each to their own. Dog eat dog. There is no such thing as society.

It's attitudes like yours that have got us where we are today in relation to inequality, which impacts on the happiness of everyone you know, not just the poor and the weak.

Clever, motivated and well supported children are proven to do well in all educational settings. Fuck, I know of children who have gone to some if the shittiest comprehensives in the country who've emerged with FANTASTIC gcse results.

Comprehensive schools need a representative intake to function as they ought to. Just like any other social institution, they struggle if they're deprived of talent.

Yep but I don't think I should be dictated to as regards which school my child goes to.

I like choice and lots of it.My 3 may end up at 3 different schools.

Sorry you're preaching to the wrong person.

Dp and I were those kids at poor comps getting good results.It was shit,my dc won't be doing the same.

Oh and you're conveniently forgetting your little utopia doesn't exist.Rich parents buy up the best comp places so there is no broad section of society.This is a far bigger problem as pointed out by Sutton.

For many families who can't afford to buy places in the best comps with property or religion going for grammar is the only option and costs less.

I'm going to assume that Level 5 is ok, as that is assumed to be pretty good in the May of Y6, and grammar school tests are in the Sept!
But I am probably wrong
Back to topic - I think something that this Government and its supporters are not good at taking on board is that if they basically say "Stuff the working / non-working classes / anyone who didn't go to Eaton and Harrow etc etc" then those they do care about are going to be living in a pretty unpleasant country. Eg riots, poorly qualified workers, more crime, and so on. I'd rather pay more for a decent country in which most people are reasonably content.

Must admit I've never really seen the point of 'choice', as the solution to education/health service problems.

"Would you like miniBoulevard to go to the good school, or the crap school?"
"Ooh, I think the crap school please, she likes a challenge..."

Could we not just try and think of ways to make all the schools good?

From you will need to cover the year 6 content by the exam or he/she won't be able to answer some of the questions.He/she would also need to cover the quicker old fashioned methods of recording(pages of gridding and chunking will be very time consuming and they get extra points for showing their workings).

Yes in an ideal world.We don't seem to live in one though.

I do wish people would stop beating this knackered drum of 'you only like your local comp because you bought a place near its leafiness/you have no standards'. For the record - and other people will on this thread will attest to this, including Blu whose comp is similarly unleafy - my daughter's school is quite, well, grimy. And full of kids on FSM.

Yes and I wish people would stop banging on re how much a level playing field the comp system is,it isn't.Thanks to the unfairness re primary education too many kids get a double whammy of unfairness.

In our local average town there are 3 comps and a bunfight if you're out of catchment to get into the best.Said catchment has far pricier houses to rent and buy in further out.

It's the same all over.