Fed up with the education divide ?

[johnbunyan]

As a former Head of an independent school, I am fed up with the ideological divide in education, and want to start a national discussion on constructive ways to help the state and independent systems grow naturally together. I am secretary of a national group of independent day schools ( mostly the old direct grant schools ) and we look back to a time when there was much greater co-operation and a real sense of social mobility. Can we return to such a consensus ? I would love to hear ideas and start building towards such a consensus, since, as we approach the 2015 General Election, it will seem a long way away! I sense that many parents would like government and schools to work something out -and quickly -since the educational divide is simply not helpful to anybody - least of all the present generation. How many out there agree?

A quick google reveals that Prescott and Betty Boothroyd both failed. Neither had an education portfolio, did they?

Hello johnbunyan

and presuming this is 'for real'

and because I'm rather fed up with Michael Rosen's letter's from 'a parent' (www.theguardian.com/profile/michaelrosen) as if he represented mainstream Britain....

So here's what I think would level the playing field:

1. Agreed national targets which OFSTED enforces

1. Surprise inspections on core subjects (so OFSTED show up and check maths/ English (Reading/ Writing) teaching that day - what was homework did it actually bear any resemblance to what was done in class? Was it differentiated into low/ middle/ high achiever ability groups at least? Did lessons/ homework challenge the bright spark? Did lessons/ homework make things clearer for the struggling pupil? (It bothers me as a parent that children in DD1's Y6 class are reading Jaqueline Wilson for age 8 readers and do not know their times tables to even x10, let alone x12. Now I've ensured my DD1 does know her times tables to x12 and have ensured access to high quality children's fiction - but not everyone has the chutzpah/ pig headedness to go their own way and ignore the school - I can assure you the school have repeatedly told me it's not necessary to know times tables to x12, long division is best left until secondary school, really The Hobbit is best left for Secondary School, etc... repeatedly)

1. Actual reporting of results (optional SATs, in class tests, etc....) & results which a parent can relate to collection of national statistics - in the way KS2 NC Levels relate.

1. Guidance that class work does wing its way home. What is so difficult about sending home a marked quiz or a worksheet (unmarked/ but demonstrating what they're doing) (There has been a discussion elsewhere on Mumsnet about the fact that schools are not sending any work home www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/1015060-head-teachers-sanctioning-the-disposal-of-children-s-workbooks/AllOnOnePage). Parents are not seeing what's going on - save for 5 minutes before a parent/ teacher meeting. I really query a system whereby schools are less than transparent about what is going on - e.g. curriculum for term describes maths as 4a,4b & 4c will be covered - with no explanation of what that might mean.)

1. Regardless of whether you are a state maintained school or an academy - the LEA has authority over you. OFSTED has authority over you. I think academies (currently very well funded from all accounts - albeit my source is the Guardian) largely are currently feeding their children well & teaching them well - but they are free of the food requirements & teaching qualification requirements state maintained schools are under. One does have to ask is the system going to be abused in future, when perhaps money is tighter. This is a real loop hole in the system - I suspect a 'carrot' to attract conversion from state to ?QUANGO sector - but schools are in fact one of those arms of government, largely paid for by taxpayers, which really should have oversight. I don't know if I would go so far as to insist on elected School Boards - but a system of checks & balances means that schools play fair and children's educational years (so crucial to every child) aren't blighted by organisations more concerned about profit than education.

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Here's what I think would benefit state schools with 'outliers' - the poorly performing student and the G&T student - both of whom can be sorely neglected in schools (possibly also in independent sector).

There should be an overarching system whereby the best teachers (state & independent sector) are used to support struggling students and G&T students - because helping either of the groups is important for society.

The struggling student may never be a high flyer - but s/he does deserve to leave primary - secondary in some cases - literate/ numerate and it's what employers crave. (Just as their is a music service for delivery of peripatetic music lessons - should there be a service to help struggling children (as proven by end KS1 SATs in KS2 Lower - so that by the time of KS2 SATs the majority (let's say 70%) are back on target?)

The G&T student with a real flair for writing/ science/ etc.... - again providing opportunities (maybe one day a month such students from throughout the catchment meat at a local University/ independent school/ comprehensive for inspiring tuition challenging them/ expanding their abilities and inspiring them).

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Yes it costs money - but I think we need to ask what is the cost of letting struggling students flounder? What is the cost of letting G&T students with real flairs for certain subjects whither through boredom/ peer pressure (which is largely anti-hard work in schools).

Schwew

Sorry to rant - but lovely to get that off my chest!

PSBD

NC levels are to go, & rightly so.

I have seen pupils come into school allegedly on a level 5 for English. And my target grades (& now pay) will be decided by that level. It's crackers.

What we really need is for control of education to be taken out of politicians hands and into those of people who actually have a clue instead of spouting the latest political crowdpleasing sound bite without one iota of thought about the effect it will have on the children subjected to their halfbrained policies!

How much is Gove consulting with people who actually have experience of education (beyond having been to private school a few decades previously)? This Government has a particular weakness for deciding what it wants to do first, and then pretending to do a little bit of quick consultation afterwards but only actually talking to or listening to those that will tell it what it wants to hear. The dismissal of the Head of Ofsted was a great example of surrounding yourself with those who tell you what they think you want to hear. It shouldn't be so difficult to set up a genuine task force, employing the best in the field, to look at what would work best. And then implement and leave well alone for 20 yrs.

Blu 'travelator to glory'. I love that phrase so much I want to marry it (or at least use it and claim it as my own.

Wordfactory - something that's been bugging me for ages: what's with the weird and sometimes random use of italics. Often when talking about the fabulousness of your life and your children's schools? Not that there's anything wrong with it, but it's a right faff putting the little hat things either side of a word so I'm wondering what you think it conveys?

Mrs T2007

I think we're saying the same thing but in different ways.

A NC Level 5 should be a NC Level 5 whether you're in Bristol/ Birmingham/ Bath/ Brighton/ Bradford/ Banbury/ Barnard Castle/ Bridlington/ Buxton/ Burton-on-Trent/ Bishop's Stortford/ Billericay/ Brixton/ etc...

Thus when families move - imagine that? - the marks are 'real' and the school doesn't need to totally reassess the kid all over.

I have no issue with choosing a private school over state but it shouldn't have to be a choice made due to lack of confidence in the State system or a particular catchment school.
There would be a great benefit to be had if schools did have pastoral care professionals supporting the education. I wonder if Life coaches of a sort in secondary school could help provide pupils from dysfunctional / difficult backgrounds a grounding, self esteem and aspiration ( beyond celebrities and footballers / drinking/drugs) so the dysfunctional or antipathy and perhaps poverty cycle has a chance to be broken.
We seem to be heaping this responsibility onto schools and teachers but almost everyone acknowledges learning needs to be supported outside the classroom. The reality is some children will never have this and teachers cannot become social workers but these children should be given extra pastoral support .
Grammar schools are great for academic children who are supported with parents interested in education but this isn't closing the divide you talk about you are just adding a bit more to your half and not addressing wider issue.

farewell ...

I don't use the italics for emphasis as such, more to give the rhythm of my real speech. If MN is a conversation, I like the idea that my posts (vaguely) express who I am.

Plus, I cannot abide blocks of unadulterated same font text. I drive my editor wild with all manner of oddities in my novels!!!!

Think of it as a personal literary tic. No more.

As for my life and that of my DC, what am I meant to do? Make up problems?

The whole point of MN and its delicious addictiveness is that we each get a snap shot into the lives of others. Utterly fascinating, I think.

Sadly for the purposes of dramatic tension, my DC's lives are most unsatisfactory .

@pastsellbydate
Perplexed - You can't possibly think Mr Rosen's letter is to be taken at face value ????

Hmm Word, thanks for answering. I'm not sure it perhaps reads as you intend, well at least to me, but I do like literary tics so I fully support your right to use them…

I have a bad habit of overusing ellipses…

As you can see...

Oh I'm sure you're right farewell... (I like 'em too)...

It probably reads as if I'm bonkers. But my speech patterns are quite eratic, so in keeping perhaps.

I was thinking about what you said though (as I took the washing upstairs, oh rock and roll) and I'm sure I do highlight how lucky we are here in Casa Wordfactory.

I've been tackled about it before on MN.

But the thing is, my fortunes in life have turned around absurdly and I'm able to give my DC such a wonderful life. It really is a never ending source of pleasure for me. And I absolutely will not ever take it for granted. Or let them take it for granted .

It would feel very low rent to try to down play it. Ungrateful!

Hi stressed:

Oh the letters are real all right - they're there Tuesday after Tuesday in the Guardian whilst parents like me are hoping to find informed reporting on all the changes in the primary curriculum/ academies/ etc...

But he rants (as I fear I have above.....) so easy when given a platform I expect....and so some good, even great points, get lost in some wild socialist chest thumping and I fear I have never read a letter to the end.

I think the problem is for those of us trapped in the middle - I don't totally disagree with Gove - there just seems to be warring camps.

Sure there's the issue that who would object to higher standards - but I like learning times tables to x12. I like that children are taught what a noun is. I LOVE THAT COLUMN METHOD for addition/subtraction/multiplication/ division (bus-stop for division) IS ALLOWED IN PRIMARY ONCE AGAIN!

There's some good in what Gove's moving toward and raising standards.

But - it's chaotic, floated in the papers first, as someone above said consultation seems odd and somewhere in there parents are just trampled over.

So for me - in all of this - what I'd like to see is a system that is clear to parents. Marks/ Grades/ NC Levels - whatever you decide upon in the end - that make sense locally/ regionally/ nationally & have integrity - are the same wherever you go.

A system that has benchmarks. Your child should be reading to this level by age 7 - if not X measures will be put in place to catch them up.

And a system that can spot talent & support it. I accept it won't be my girls - but I'd like to believe that if there is a great mathematician, writer, scientist, etc... - they could thrive due to the system rather than in spite of it.

But above all else - at some point - it would be nice for all concerned - parents/ children and I suspect teachers - for a few years of stability. This endless rolling out of new initiatives is wearing everybody out I fear.

[Sorry another aside to Wordfactory, put like that it, it's really endearing so I take back hint of snark. My children have the life I dreamed of for myself, for very different reasons (my childhood v Tory, shires) and I am constantly reminding them how lucky they are. They'll probably reject it all though.]

Oh yawn an anti grammar thread- again.Not all grammars are ss and sorry any bright child wanting to go can tutor themselves. Imvho kids from Outstanding primaries have far more of an 11+ advantage than kids who do a measly snatched hour of tutoring in whatever form a week.

Moving on.

I loath comps and think they do little for many children.

I think choice is the key and much better primary education.

Seeing as GCSEs (going by another thread )are often based on KS 2 Sats which are often pre determined by KS1 Sats taken when a lot of children aren't fully mature many kids are pretty much royally stuffed before they even step in to any secondary school.

All primaries should be Outstanding so the parents who have bought their Outstanding places with property or religion don't manage to elbow their kids ahead at 4.

There should be far more parental information.

There should be a variety of secondary schools.

All primaries should give pupils who wish access to 11+ materials.

In an ideal world private education should simply be curtailed.

@FW&WF off topic but talking of DC and lives dreamed of - hv either of you read stumbled across accidentally today's story in the DM about the lady wanting dd privately educated and Oxford with the sole aim of wealthy husband and becoming a SAHM. So once state schools are sorted indies can become finishing schools

@retropear- I agree some children do benefit the Gschool system and I am not anti GS but the OP was talking re closing a divide bringing state schools inline with Indies. Re-introducing GS is one small step but like you said primaries must first be improved.
Hi SBD- it's bonkers, one minute the school was insisting on cursive writing in Y2 and then in Y5 children were told they had to revert to print. Bus stop - what's that??
It's quite unbelievable the education system is such a mess !

This thread isn't about grammar schools, surely- but as an aside- could jth people who want more of them explain what they are going to do with the majority who don't get in?

And I really can't let "any bright kid ho wants to get in an tutor themselves" pass without a .

"Oh yawn an anti grammar thread- again.Not all grammars are ss and sorry any bright child wanting to go can tutor themselves. Imvho kids from Outstanding primaries have far more of an 11+ advantage than kids who do a measly snatched hour of tutoring in whatever form a week."

Do children who go to outstanding primaries where they learn in classes of 30, have the same chance of a grammar school place as an equally bright child at a good private prep school who has been taught in classes of 15 since nursery? I don't think so, hence the disproportionate numbers of children from private preps in grammars.

As for 'a measly hour a week' tuition, how much one to one time with a qualified teacher does your average state primary pupil get over the course of an course of a week?

All the children I know who are having 11+ tutoring with a properly qualified and experienced teacher don't just have a once a week session and nothing else. First off they have a detailed assessment which will flag up areas of weakness (pertinent to the 11+) in maths and English, and secondly they are sent home from their lessons with several hours of targeted and appropriate homework to complete outside of the tuition session.

There isn't a level playing field in relation to grammar school entry and everyone knows it.

Mini your experience of tutoring bares absolutely no relation to the tutoring kids round here get.

Groups or 6, all doing the same,with a variety of tutors not necessarily teachers,no assessment.They get a shed load of work to do at home all of which they could buy in Smiths and is down to them at the end of the day.

My kids haven't been tutored previously,their friends have.We've recently just started dipping our toe in.

Sorry but a child in an Outstanding primary being taught level 6 maths and pushed in writing will have a massssseeeeve advantage.20 minutes a week going through a maths Bond book,along with 20 mins of writing and 20 VB is not going to get any kid into most grammars.Being bright,having access to a good/Outstanding primary education and a go at a VR book most could do like a puzzle book will.

The lack of a level playing field is down to differing primary standards.

It us well known that parents buying their way into the best Primaries and then the best Secondaries is a far bigger problem.Only a fraction of kids go to grammars.

Wouldn't it be great to see the very bright and interested kids at grammar schools (of course in many areas there are none), not kids who may be neither but have been taught to the test?
Many families wouldn't even think of putting their child in for grammar school entry. And if they did they might not be able to tutor themselves or to pay for a tutor (or a private primary, obviously), and if their child got in might not be able to afford the bus fare, as it is unlikely to be their local school.
We certainly don't live in a meritocracy. From birth onwards many of the opportunities in life can be bought. And we don't end up with the pool of talent that we need for the important jobs.

Sorry but I honestly don't think non bright kids could pass the 11+. Have you seen the maths?I think bright kids lose places to other bright kids.More often than not those from better primaries state and private.

Grammar schools only serve a tiny fraction of the population.What is the point of yet another anti grammar thread when there are far bigger issues at stake which have an impact on an awful lot more children.

The selective schools are to blame for the divide by selecting extensively tutored students instead of selecting children based on CATS tests,SATS tests or teachers reports.

Retropear- forgive me- but it's you, I think, who made this a thread about grammar schools!