Fed up with the education divide ?

[johnbunyan]

As a former Head of an independent school, I am fed up with the ideological divide in education, and want to start a national discussion on constructive ways to help the state and independent systems grow naturally together. I am secretary of a national group of independent day schools ( mostly the old direct grant schools ) and we look back to a time when there was much greater co-operation and a real sense of social mobility. Can we return to such a consensus ? I would love to hear ideas and start building towards such a consensus, since, as we approach the 2015 General Election, it will seem a long way away! I sense that many parents would like government and schools to work something out -and quickly -since the educational divide is simply not helpful to anybody - least of all the present generation. How many out there agree?

"Private schools are an utter irrelevance to the bulk of the population."

This is soooooo not true! They are an irrelevance in terms of the education of their own children- but in terms of the thinking and mindset behind policy making they are front and centre!

OK, OK : yes, the "policy makers" and "researchers" are almost exclusively private school twerps who have never spent a single day outside the bubble of their silver spoon lives

BUT
they are so utterly alien to the bulk of the population and the schooling they have to cope with
(going to a non catchment school is only an option for those with money to spare on petrol / fares after all)
that they cease caring.

Honestly.
I find Mumsnet really interesting because DH is up to his ears in Education policy and Curriculum development
but most parents give schooling a lot less thought than you would want to believe.

Which is why I believe in Comp schools : because they give even the children of indigent parents the same chance to excel in their chosen subject area as the children of the rich and sharp elbowed.

Private school twerps are vastly over represented in politics, the media, business, finance, the judiciary, academia, high ranks of the police and armed forces...

utterly irrelevant to the lives of most people.

Why are wealthy foreigners sending kids to public schools?

Because it's a badge of joining the elite class
Because they want to adapt to the culture and way of lite of the elite they are to trade and deal with in their business
Because it's a fassionable way to spend money
Because of security concerns back home
Because they might have to exile in UK like the Russian Olygarhs
Because it avoids them to pass more difficult exams back home (like the French)

None of these reason are to do with quality of education.

Martara- I raised the Asian issue as representatives of the UK government are currently in China looking at the education system - my point is exactly that it is not relevant to the UK.and yes all children do attend school- cant comment on Africa I've no experience!
the outdated experience I had 20+ years ago is still relevant. The comp school system still spat out a % of children without any meaningful qualifications back then - what has changed.
Forgive me if I totally misunderstand your standpoint but it seems your attitude is "I'm ok jack" what's everyone's problem. But even you have mentioned there is a % in your DS school that will leave effectively unemployable and yet you cannot say where your school could improve?

VC- of the many Asians travelling for education it is because they believe the UK education system is superior. You are wrong if you think it's just about bragging rights!

"Forgive me if I totally misunderstand your standpoint but it seems your attitude is "I'm ok jack" what's everyone's problem. But even you have mentioned there is a % in your DS school that will leave effectively unemployable and yet you cannot say where your school could improve?"

You do misunderstand my standpoint. Perhaps you could actually read my posts?

The vast majority of students leave my ds's school- as leave most schools with either GCSEs or BTecs or a mixture of the two. There are a few children who leave any school without qualifications. I know someone who left Winchester with no exams. I suspect people are unlikely to call Winchester a failing school because of him?

And I would be very surprised indeed if every child in Asia attends school.........

Its funny these threads , come up every 3-4 weeks and the same people (I am Gulity more than most) saying the same things everytime.

It is important to note though that there is a huge difference between a private school and " A private School" .The first type of private school became private due to the abolition of Grammar schools, or because the state system were not able to offer a specialist education

The second type of private school "THE PUBLIC SCHOOL" was created with the sole interest of educating the Upper Class and the Wealthy Merchants kids to who the Upper Class depended on to keep the status Quo. This status Quo is even more obvious today, it has just moved slightly towards "Internationalism" as the world has become smaller and less relevant on national interest.

The problem is evident in the fact that the top jobs are not even going to the "Private School kids", but to the Public School kids, even music and sport are becoming more and more dominated by Public school kids. The Private School kids are now taking the roles of the Old Grammar School Kids (I.E Middle and Upper Middle management jobs subservient to the public school kids) . The best pupils of the remaining Grammar Schools/Top Comprehensives are clinging on by their nails to remain in the Private school group.

The rest of the population have very little chance of actually getting the top jobs or in to senior or high paying careers. There are of course "Exceptions" and everybody knows exceptions , but for the vast majority your "Life Chances" has been decided by the time you go to senior school.

Life Chances have been decided by the time you go to senior school.

The oldest public schools were actually founded to educate the poor for free (Eton, Winchester etc).

So that's why they got called "Public Schools Then" That did not really happen though did it Grovel....

Indulgence in the idea that British education is the only one that produces competent and creative people is based on cold war propaganda and and the racism pervasive at the time it was established. Now it is the barrier to any reform. It is reassuring to declare that China is a ‘sausage factory’ where people don’t have opinions about anything. You don’t need to deal with the question what are you better at…

The Brits were dismissing the Americans, the Japanese, the Koreans, but look, which British company is global leader in manufacturing? Which companies grew on the crest of consumer electronics revolution? The Brits invented the internet (although the Americans would laugh at that), but which companies used it to create new industries? Which UK Company is the recognisable name in software, in telecommunications? In Space?

Apparently, when Obama asked Apple to bring Ipad design back in US from China, Steve Job told him “No”, because there were more engineering talent available in China…

They say that Brits are best at high end design and services. Yes, but how many low skilled jobs are there in these services you can really export?

What do we have to show for this great progressive education? We have politicians and journalists , the world best paid bankers and lawyers. They are the people who enjoy real social mobility.

The UK education system is designed to prepare and select for those careers and to discount everything else. This bias is built in the teaching and assessment methods of the curriculum from primary school.

Passing exams has got nothing to do with whether you can work and hold down a job…

Well, passing exams shows you can complete the task to a good standard, manage yourself, have discipline, follow instructions.

The access to the best paid and most influential jobs in Finance, Law, Media and Plolitics have already been mentioned by a few posters. Talking about low skilled jobs, I v’ been scanning for work experience for DS and came across many adverts for apprentiships. All of them wanted 5 good GCSEs. They get 100ds applications per place…

Entry level jobs and courses for young people without 5GCSEs are in very short supply unfortunately.

We no longer have the pits, the dock yards, the factories, the agriculture. Everyone can't become a plumber!

The UK and USA approach to liberal, individual learning, critical thinking...
The US education for the less privileged is a disaster. We are heading their way.

Debate
Yes, debate is great for politicians, lawyers etc. But can ignorant people really have independent opinions and contribute to serious debate? Or are their opinions shaped by the cues from the media?

Let’s come back to Maths. There isn’t any debate in Maths. To be good at maths you need to practice solving problems of increasing difficulty; lots of them, from primary school. The PISA study shown UK is behind 12 countries, including many European ones with similar culture and family structure. This is not about the Asian society and culture, it is about the culture in education and the methods of teaching and assessment.

Concerning applying maths in context, apparently UK grammar school kids cannot either. In this article they explain that GCSE is done by rote learning and discourages thinking.
"The results show that any question requiring more than a memory prompt is considered hard by students and teachers."
What constitutes a ‘hard’ question in GCSE Mathematics: A bit of thought is required

Does nobody here understand the concept of progress? It's not about the 'top' and the 'bottom', that's how it used to be in the 1950s. In 2014 it should be about aptitude, potential, learning style, skill, gift, pleasure in learning
Yes, of course, absolutely. It is intended. The most able students and those in private schools enjoy all of this. But none of this is happening for failing students in failing schools. Do those who leave school at 16 without any qualifications have a sense of their talent, skill, potential? Did they enjoy learning?
I mean, it is supposed to, but doesn’t come together. Why?

I think ‘The UK and USA approach to liberal, individual learning, critical thinking’ works well for the bright students and the elites, but it does not work for the disadvantaged and the least able.

I don’t know why. Maybe because to get anywhere in education you need focus, quiet structured environment, confidence, perseverance, hard work, good work habits, motivation. You also need to develop a learning skill, a systematic approach which is developed in early years and in primary schools. The social divide in UK takes away much of this form disadvantaged kids.

You can have an innate ability for that, or you might learn that in primary school by looking at model answers and doing homework. By looking at model answers Chinese students might learn a lot about the method of developing a good answer. After all Asian have been winners of international maths Olympiads for many years. I don’t suppose the Olympiad questions were the same that they already memorised?

The structured model, of which Asia is just one example, provides these factors, as probably does the education in Netherlands, Poland, Germany.

We can't turn back to the 1950, but we need to go forward towards a place where the disadvantaged kids can succeed.

"Talking about low skilled jobs, I v’ been scanning for work experience for DS and came across many adverts for apprentiships."

Since when have apprenticeships been "low skilled jobs"?

Thanks for this debate! So much going on here - and so many threads. The pity is that this discussion is not taking place within government. 'The Berlin Wall' debate needs to go further and come up with really constructive solutions. We do need to recognise that we have a fantastic variety of schools in our country, and simply to talk about the divide between state and independent is not true any more - so many of the comments so far are too simplistic. As soon as the old grammar schools became independent ( as most did) the public schools became a different beast - and most people have not recognised that, even today. Have a look at what 'The minister for civil Society' has said today, when, in his mind, public school = Eton or Wellington College. Similarly, 'comprehensives schools' are so varied it beggars belief. My fear is that the old direct grant and grammar schools, now independent, will simply become educational gated communities, alongside those theoretical comprehensives which tend to be in leafy suburbs and are even more selective.

Martorana,

Aprentiships are the process of entering jobs for unskilled youngster. I am sure you know that they are part of the government plan to solve youth unemployment.

Do you think they are too academic and elitist too?

What jobs do you think are available to 16 years olds without GCSEs? Could you list them?

Oh ffs, John, enough with the leafy. And why don't you answer my points upthread instead of just saying 'oh what an interesting debate'? How about a bit of rigorous analysis and evidence to support your arguments?

I asked you nearly a week ago:

'the more traditionally academic child who feels held back in many instances '

Please demonstrate examples - proper, across the population examples not anecdotal - of these 'traditionally academic children'. Because you're not just saying 'state schools are holding bright kids back', you're saying how those kids feel. Just interested in how you know?

And then:

I'm also interested in those politicians who'd attended secondary moderns: who were they? And why did they precede the people who'd done well in, and want to perpetuate, grammar schools? So people who'd failed the 11 plus went on to become politicians, in large enough numbers to influence educational policy; while people who'd passed went and did something else?

I note that you've not answered either of those points.

Well, as nice as it is to have the OP return and explain where and why some posts are wrong or 'far too simplistic'.

And yes, enough with the 'leafy' crap... The only 'constructive solution' to breaking down the 'Berlin wall' here would be to not construct a Berlin Wall based on ability to pay.

That is the wall. It is the obvious, manifest, constructed, deliberate, desired, wall. Break that wall, and then let's talk about whether there are some comprehensives that are still better than others, and whether that's something that could be addressed via catchment tweaks. But ex-private school heads can't talk about 'gated communities' as an abstract metaphor without being aware of some level of hypocrisy irony, surely?

(And you pinched the wall analogy from John Coles...)

OP last flippant post, can't be bothered to read through or and add anything meaningful . Regurgitates words. His attitude displays everything that is wrong with out of touch educationalists.
I'm out - happy debating people. To add my own flippant rhetoric "God help those poor kids consigned to a life stacking shelves - if they are lucky to find those jobs or perhaps the government could introduce a lottery for 1 way tickets to China for unaccomplished 16 year olds

Yep- because flippant is exactly what we need.....