Fed up with the education divide ?

[johnbunyan]

As a former Head of an independent school, I am fed up with the ideological divide in education, and want to start a national discussion on constructive ways to help the state and independent systems grow naturally together. I am secretary of a national group of independent day schools ( mostly the old direct grant schools ) and we look back to a time when there was much greater co-operation and a real sense of social mobility. Can we return to such a consensus ? I would love to hear ideas and start building towards such a consensus, since, as we approach the 2015 General Election, it will seem a long way away! I sense that many parents would like government and schools to work something out -and quickly -since the educational divide is simply not helpful to anybody - least of all the present generation. How many out there agree?

Talkinpeace.

The first Course I took was a Btec first Diploma in 1989/90. I mention this because what is today a ( worthless Btec First) we had to learn Book keeping (Basic) but a start and write a 750 word assignment about the Schengen treaty and how the abolition of borders in the EEC would improve trade between countries ( Remember we were E and D grade Gcse students) .Could you imagine D and E grade students today being asked to explain the Schengen treaty and the benefits of a single Currency (yeah)Or Disasters of European Integration .

The Btec National Diploma in Business studies was regarded as equal to A levels. If you got a Distinction in a National Diploma you would probably have got in to a Russell group University.

It all seems bizarre today . The sad thing is that Btecs , City and Guilds have been so dumbed down it is hard to believe that they used to be valuable and useful qualifications to have.

soul
same as HNDs were destroyed at the altar of BAs

vanilla
the fact that you need to ask some of your questions shows that you have no concept of how non selective schools work.

What IS the split of high / middle / low achievers at your DC school ?

It's not non selective schools, it's schools that congratulate themselves on failing 40%.

If setting and streaming really worked, 95% would have some good qualifications at 16%, not 59%. Clearly those comprehensives cater only for a limited band of ability.

at 16 years

Vanilla
I'm not sure why you are so obsessed with your 40% figure

As per the DFE website
www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/accounts-finance.55/
82.9% of state school pupils achieve 5 or more A*-C GCSE or equivalent

and many of that remaining 17.1% have several qualifications, but they may not have five and they may not be at grade C or above

you really need to be less dismissive of that which you do not understand

Vanilla- there are qualifications which are not GCSEs. There are children for whom academic GCSEs are not appropriate. There are children who take BTecs and other qualifications. Leaving school without 5 academic GCSEs does not mean having no qualifications. Or having no chance of a job or further education.

How do the lower achievers at your dc's school do?

in fact, according to this page of the DFE tables
[http://www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/group.pl?qtype=NAT&superview=sec&view=aat&set=2&sort=&ord=&tab=54&no=999&pg=1]]

95.8% of state school pupils achieve 5 or more graded GCSEs or equivalent

95.3% of state school pupils acieve the level one qualification in English and Maths

I see no failing in the comprehensive system there ...
high achievers are allowed to excel
low achievers are supported so that almost all of them have some proof of learning

without being excluded from the system as they are by fee paying schools and how they were until the 70's

sorry link fail

www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/group.pl?qtype=NAT&superview=sec&view=aat&set=2&sort=&ord=&tab=54&no=999&pg=1

www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/group.pl?qtype=NAT&superview=sec&view=aat&set=2&sort=&ord=&tab=150&no=999&pg=1

it is all very well people objecting to criticism of the comps
but denial on principal just feeds the brain drain from comps
parents who can vote with their feet are doing so
and then the gap widens even more

boubly
parents who can vote with their feet are doing so
um no
because in this county (and most others) its comp or private
and the numbers using private is unchanged over many years

I'm not objecting to criticism of comprehensive schools. I am objecting to criticism which does not appear to have anything behind it. I have asked you several times, boubly, to back up your statements, but you continually ignore.

Soul 2000

Of course Btec and C*G are producing that standard now.
Technology has improved so much of the content has changed, but if you look at the skills involved at each level they are pretty similar.

Martorana
too many computer based home-works
hundreds of printed handouts
no text books
different exam board for each subject
2 teachers for each subject
unable to speak to teachers

Talking
I didn't necessarily mean from a comp, I meant to a better school whether it is another comp, grammar or private

Talking

Your first link does not show good GCSEs. it shows up to grade G, which is as good as toilet paper.

The second link shows that in state funded schools 53.6% of pupils achieve GCSEs grade A* to C including English and Maths.

So it's 47% failure, not 40!

Gove is absolutely right. I am warming to him. Schools need an EBAC target, otherwise they just marinate in their self congratulatory complacency.

Boubly
but denial on principal just feeds the brain drain from comps parents who can vote with their feet are doing so and then the gap widens even more

you said from the comps
which is bilge
because in most of the country there are only comps
and 90% of the population cannot consider fee paying

oh, and the word is principle

wow Vanilla
you cannot see beyond your own little selective bubble.

How many kids at your DCs school are low and middle achievers?

^parents who can vote with their feet are doing so
um no^

This is very complacent. This denial can result in all sorts of political things from privatisation of state schools to re-introduction of grammars and secondary moderns.

You actually do argue for a secondary modern for the bottom 20% while praising comprehensive education for your own little darlings. How hypocritical.

"too many computer based home-works
not sure what that means
hundreds of printed handouts
why is this a problem? You collect them in a folder
no text books
yes, this pisses me off too- I end up buying them. At ds's school they have the. But aren't allowed to bring them home- because they never come back again. Which is,ni suppose, a child/parent issue, rather than a school one. Are any textbooks on the VLE?
different exam board for each subject
what, for every subject? That 'a a bit odd- it's quite usual to use a couple of different ones. Why do they use a different one for every subject?
2 teachers for each subject
don't see a problem with this
unable to speak to teachers
this is the only big problem in your list in my opinion-do you not have email addresses? What happens if you phone for an appointment? I would talk this to the governors if I were uou

Vanilla
You actually do argue for a secondary modern for the bottom 20% while praising comprehensive education for your own little darlings. How hypocritical.
where do I argue that? ... quote and time of post please

how many low achievers at your DCs school?

"You actually do argue for a secondary modern for the bottom 20% while praising comprehensive education for your own little darlings. How hypocritical."

What do you mean? I honestly don't understand this at all.

first of all thanks for the lesson in grammar/spelling
I meant from a poor achieving school to a better achieving school
and if that is bilge you just have to look at the house prices around the catchment areas of the 'better schools'

boubly
but where I live, 500 kids do not go to our catchment school
so the prices in the catchment are irrelevant
that and the catchment for DCs school is 10 miles across and house prices range from £80,000 to £15,000,000

talking
ok I am wrong

Vanilla, you have stated very clearly that your children's school achieves 100% A*-C with English and maths, and therefore any school could do the same. I have asked several times what methods your dc's school uses to achieve this with it's lower achievers - could you answer please?