Fed up with the education divide ?

[johnbunyan]

As a former Head of an independent school, I am fed up with the ideological divide in education, and want to start a national discussion on constructive ways to help the state and independent systems grow naturally together. I am secretary of a national group of independent day schools ( mostly the old direct grant schools ) and we look back to a time when there was much greater co-operation and a real sense of social mobility. Can we return to such a consensus ? I would love to hear ideas and start building towards such a consensus, since, as we approach the 2015 General Election, it will seem a long way away! I sense that many parents would like government and schools to work something out -and quickly -since the educational divide is simply not helpful to anybody - least of all the present generation. How many out there agree?

Gunznroses - I wonder?

I know there are many under-perfoming and undesirable schools (not just comps as it happens!) and here on MN we tend to hear, naturally, from parents who are not happy because they don't have good available options, parents who are assuming, on little evidence, that high FSM / EAL will lead to a situation in which their sensitive child will be 'eaten alive', parents busting a gut to get into a super selective, sometimes 'just because it is there' or parents agonising about whether to send a child to a private school, possibly for the same reason - and parents whose child is having a bad time. Sometimes in a comp, sometimes in another kind of school.

We don't hear from the great swathes of parents quietly appreciative of good comps the length and breadth of the land.

I don't see how you can say that most people do not have access to a good enough comp.

(Any is too many, of course. )

Gunznroses
The school catchment I live in is dire : but its a sponsored Academy so will be protected by the powers that be.

You do not hear lots of threads about people getting into comps around most of the country because in this county over 90% get their first choice - even when like me its not the catchment school

For what I know BTECs are equivalent of A levels, so presumably they were designed with a view that everyone should get GCSEs. Maybe the C&G exams were forgotten because they were judged inadequate for the modern world. I don't know.

You need to decide what level of education is appropriate for a citizen that has the right to vote, to elect politicians which will define the future of their children, decide on euthanasia, cyber-surveillance, unmanned killing drones, climate change. They are already buying Google class. These kids will need to understand what is going on. Otherwise you kill democracy by ignorance.

You can't have a system with 60% success rate. It is not a good benchmark in any industry.

You can't have a system where 40% of 14-16 years old spend 2 year frustrated at school and get out with nothing to become NEETs. These two years put them off learning and hard work and undermine their employ-ability. At 16 people should have some sense of self worth, some qualifications, something they are good at that they can use directly on the job market, in further education, something respected and accepted.

If 20% they can't pass GCSEs, they should be doing BTECs at 14, not after GCSEs. After all the taxpayers are paying for 2 years of study and that should not go to waste.

Then GCSE should be the universal exams at 14? Then you separate into vocational and academic streams. 6th form would then be 4 years.

Maybe the C&G exams were forgotten because they were judged inadequate for the modern world. I don't know.
LOL
you clearly have no idea what C&G are
they are alive and well and still highly respected

if you do not know what they are, you have no right to comment on vocational qualifications and the appropriateness of GCSEs to all people

I don't see how you can say that most people do not have access to a good enough comp.

Schools drastically influencing house prices.
Parents moving from where they've happily lived for yrs simply to be near 'good comp'.
People moaning on MN about catchments, schools failing their children etc
Grammar area filled with parents tutoring thir kids to get into the grammar.
Non grammar area filed with parents tutoring thir kids to get into indies.
Gove trying to "improve/restructure education as opposed to simply maintaining the current system.
Personally i don't know anyone (except 3 friends all in catchment for outstanding school, and moved their just befire dc started yr 6) happy with their local comp, they simply shrug and hope it all turns out for the best.

Talkinnpeace sorry but i did not understand your second paragraph about seeing threads on MN about comps? Were you mistakenly referencing me? I wouldn't naturally expect lots of threads about kids entering comps as they're not selective. Entering comps isn't the problem, it's being in the catchment of a good comp that's the issue.

I Have a "City and Guilds in TRAVEL AND TOURISM" Level 2 COTAC and I was Licensed to issue AIR TICKETS , you used to need to have passed an exam with 85% ( Believe it or not in 1991) and at the time you needed to know 135 Air Tickets. You needed to understand how they were distinct from each other and by able to advise clients/Customers which Ticketing Code was right for them.

The daft thing Is I started to write this post as a Joke, but I have just realised that 85% and understanding 135 different Air Ticketing codes Is actually not an easy thing to do.

At the time in the early 1990s City and Guilds as well as Btecs actually provided students with skills that made them employable and in "MANAGEMENT POSITIONS AS WELL"
The Whole emphasis has changed but that's not to say if properly used and not seen as (DUMPING GROUNDS ) for thick students City And Guilds and Btecs could not provide the same today.

Well, there you are, Gunznroses - MI and I live miles apart across a slice of London which is where people move if they can't afford nice areas or to be near the tube - i.e the arse end of London - and most people I know are very happy with the access to good comps. S it's anecdotal. You can't say for sure.

There are parents in our road who have tutored and tutored and angsted to get places in grammars and super selectives a train ride away, but not because we don't have good comps.

Yes, it depends where you live, but some counties have not good schools in general (wasn't Norfolk ofstedded as a whole because the whole LEA was underperforming?), catchment doesn't always equal higher prices (I could move a mile N and also NW and be in smkarter trendier areas with much higher prices for houses and be in much worse catchments).

Underperforming schools need to be improved.

Children should not be let down.

Personally i don't know anyone (except 3 friends all in catchment for outstanding school, and moved their just befire dc started yr 6) happy with their local comp, they simply shrug and hope it all turns out for the best

You obviously have a very specific social circle. Mine is just the opposite. I don't know anyone who moved house for a better catchment area from our primary let alone close friends. We have no grammar schools at all, and whilst there are some faith secondary schools, they are are not seen as particularly desirable as their results are no better (or worse) then the other comps.

I can only think of one person was not happy with their comp, and this was SEN related and her DS is now at a special school.

my local comp is dire so my kids do not go there
but I did not stress on MN about it, I just did my application form
mine and 500 other local kids got into our choice of school without having to move house
that is the real world

but people who are happy with our options get labelled as smug

All the posters here, except Boubly and Gunznroses seem to be happy with their high performing comprehensives. I also guess that their particular DC are doing well within those comprehensives, so it's easy to like the system that works so well.

If 50% of school produce more than 40% of students without good GCSEs, this is bad luck for those students.

We don't need any improvements to education system because the people who matter are already very happy. The people who are not winning in this system are not even on MN and are not raving about education good or bad in this thread.

Vanillachocolate- I don't think you've posted the breakdown of low, middle and high attainers at you dc's school yet, have you?

There are parents in our road who have tutored and tutored and angsted to get places in grammars and super selectives a train ride away, but not because we don't have good comps.

A big part of the problem is people opinion of what constitutes a good comp is different. You think they've got a good comp they obviously don't think so.

Creamteas i don't have a very specific social circle but we generally have a certain idea about what constitutes a good education in common, i don't get the feeling outside of personal friends either that on average people are delighted with whichever comp catchment they're in, only a lucky few are.

VC, that is a bizarre statement.

My dc is ding extremely well in his school, and yes, is a high achiveer. However, one of the reasons I am very happy with his school, and rate it, is precisely because it does extremely well for students who come from chaotic homes, are not high atainers, have a variety of SEN and serves it's young people well across the board.

If there are inadequate schools and children receiving an inadequate education then something does need to be done.

Many people who 'want something done' want their children to be able to be hived off - on a travelator of glory - to a grammar, a selective, somewhere exclusive.

My issue is that in the case of improvements to education I want all children to be well catered for, and for comps not to be written off, chucked out with the baby's bath water - just because a load of parents who would prefer the travelator route want to only focus on their kids and get them into separate buildings from children who would not make a certain, rather arbitary, academic grade.

Gunz - look at the stats from my DC's comp and tell me if you think it is a good comp.

(oh, and of course the high attainers - like the tutored etc - get results which match the grammars)

Instead of glorifying the status quo by blaming natural stupidity of arbitrary 20% of low attainers, or of children with SN, professionals should really reform it in the way that works for 100% one way or another. You can't have 40% or even 20% in lymbo.

But that would require new thinking and some work.

they are not in limbo
but you are too narrow minded to see that there is life beyond GCSEs

what IS the split at your school by the way ?

VanillaChocolate - what exactly are you advocating for?

No one wants 40% of children to fail. Do you think that 100% of children can actually achieve what the top 25% currently achieve? All? And if not, the results of some children will naturally affect the overall average stats.

"Instead of glorifying the status quo by blaming natural stupidity of arbitrary 20% of low attainers, or of children with SN, professionals should really reform it in the way that works for 100% one way or another"

Nobody has said anything of the sort. How, by the way, does your dc's school get it's low attainers to 5 a*-C GCSEs? Surely it should be sharing it's techniques?

Blue,

You are doing exactly the thing that you criticize the others for. You deny the problem and limit the debate because your DC is in good school doing well. If the national average is 59% of good GCSEs, this means the majority of schools are failing much too many pupils.

Why do you keep going on about how your school is great? It's irrelevant. It can't be replicated across 2000 other schools.

Vanilla None of what you just said makes sense!
We don't need any improvements to education because the people who matter are happy?

Who are the people who matter and those that don't?

The people who are not winning in the system are not on MN?
How on earth do you know who is on MN and who isn't? Most people have access to the internet these days you know its not the preserve of the middle classes.

Blu - is there a link to your dc school? Also i can't decide simply based on results wether its a good school.

they are not in limbo
...there is life beyond GCSEs

Please expand, what is it without good GCSEs?

How do you call the place where they are NEETs?

Why did the taxpayers pay for 2 years of education that produced nothing and then need to pay for further 2 years to get them some vocational qualifications instead?

People should be graduating at 16 with something positive, that they can use.