I'm just getting my head round Gove's changes to the exam system- and I am even mor horrified than I thought I would be!

[curlew]

The three things that leap out at me are 1)all year 11s have to do 8 GCSEs of which 5 have to be EBacc subjects, which will be a real struggle for many, 2) no more tiered papers, so one exam for all, so kids for whom a C is a real achievement have to sit a paper which has also to cater for the effortless A*, and 3)only the first attempt at an exam counts for the league tables. This means for a school like ours, where the vast majority of students are middle/low ability, and where we have always let many have a "practice go" early, won't be able to- because the risk to the school is too great.

The baccalauréat is a qualifying exam, however - you cannot proceed to HE without it (even though, strangely enough, offers are made on the basis of school reports, not conditionally on marks in the bac).

Is science not tested?

It's not obligatory. It's changed a bit recently but the basic point of the brevet is to make sure that as many DC as possible reach a recognised minimum standard in the basics. It is not in any way some kind of perfect exam! I am not defending it as such. What I am defending is the fact that over 80% of DC pass it each year, which at least gives some kind of minimum guarantee of precisely what the population is able to do.

Ohyoubad
Science is not compulsory, but philosophy is : no wonder the French Economy is heading for the buffers

And PE. I think you have to get 10 out of 20 in everything every week(month?) or you have to repeat a year. Very high pressure the French system!

There is no philosophy in the brevet.

yup, lets send Gove to France
he'll like it and they'll like him

The French system is full of things that need improving too!

TalkinPeace I am surprised you don't like Gove while thinking French economy is dismal because they teach children philosophy.... Even apart from assuming all is OK with the British economy, one wouldn't know where to start talking about what is so fundamentally wrong with your statement

Bonsoir
"What I am defending is the fact that over 80% of DC pass it each year, which at least gives some kind of minimum guarantee of precisely what the population is able to do."

One of the main differences seems to be that if 80% of pupils pass (in your system) it is hailed as a success.
If 80% of pupils passed in the English system it is seen as dumbing down the system.

I don't think there is any sort of inevitability there. After all, more and more people have a driving licence but standards required to obtain one have got higher, not lower.

But with a driving lesson you can have has many attempts and s long as you like to pass it. School exams have to be passed in a finite time.

That doesn't change the underlying principle of what I am saying. Different examinations have different purposes.

There is too much flexibility in the English examination process to make them fit for purpose, which is (a) to ensure everyone reaches the same minimum skill level in basic education (b) to compare one pupil with another at a given point in their education and to draw conclusions as to their relative achievement.

I love the way talkin just makes something up about a system she wants to derides and presents it as fact. Then she doesn't acknowledge that she's just made it up .

I know someone in RL like this. She makes a statement (usually utter nonsense) then makes those quotationmarks with her fingers and shouts 'FACT'. .

I think Talkin has a very vivid imagination .

Talking philosophy was the basis of science and the ability to ask good question and use logic is still a fundamental skill for most subjects including science. From a cultural point of view learning about previous philosophers is as interesting as anything else.

France is un pays d'ingénieurs. Science and engineering is what they are good at - witness France's comparative advantage in planes, trains, roads, pharmaceuticals, power...

Literary production is rubbish.

The French read a high percentage of books in translation, as do the Germans.

It's really hard to get DC to read anything much that was written in French. Modern French children's literature is unbelievably dull.

I have to say that the way my god daughter's Parisian school approached literature would have put me off reading for life.......

Have to say I was a tiny bit surprised to hear from someone who teaches in a lycée that their philosophy department is as big as the maths department, though.
I agree with the comment up thread about negative press in the UK. Our local paper in France is always full of good news stories about schools, whereas the UK press, local and national, is so negative. There have been some really convoluted headlines this week along the lines of "fewer schools failing to make the grade". More schools succeeding anyone?

EmilyAlice - why surprised? All DC do philosophy in Terminale but Bac L pupils no longer do maths. An L-heavy lycée (perfectly possible in theory) would teach more philosophy than maths.

Yes I am sure you are right, I just hadn't thought about it before.
I do think that some French institutions (certainly bits of l'administration) suffer from too much of an intellectual / philosophical / theoretical approach and not enough pragmatism and common sense. I know a lot of French people who think the same.
Sorry, gone very off-topic here.

I was having a similar conversation with my (French) DSS1 who is at university in England. He is a bit stressed at the thought of exams that will require him to write 3 or 4 essays in 3 hours as he is trained to do exams that require 1 essay in four hours. We talked about the French approach which requires you to demonstrate knowledge of a lot of theory and to write to an elaborate plan versus the English approach where you are under intense time pressure and must demonstrate your point quickly and concisely.

Both approaches have their uses.

Yes they do, but I think we have all seen the problems caused in large French companies when competition means that people have to think quickly, do things "out of the box" (apologies for cliché), work in teams etc. My OH used to work as a troubleshooting consultant with large R and D departments who could design very elegant products that didn't work with anything else. The charming traditions that make so many things a pleasure are also a huge disadvantage I think.