I'm just getting my head round Gove's changes to the exam system- and I am even mor horrified than I thought I would be!

[curlew]

The three things that leap out at me are 1)all year 11s have to do 8 GCSEs of which 5 have to be EBacc subjects, which will be a real struggle for many, 2) no more tiered papers, so one exam for all, so kids for whom a C is a real achievement have to sit a paper which has also to cater for the effortless A*, and 3)only the first attempt at an exam counts for the league tables. This means for a school like ours, where the vast majority of students are middle/low ability, and where we have always let many have a "practice go" early, won't be able to- because the risk to the school is too great.

That's the thing that is puzzling kitten. I think about 20% of people took o-levels. Even allowing for the fact that a large number of pupils could have taken o-levels but didn't because of low expectations, I don't understand how one exam, aparently modelled on o-levels, can simultaneously differentiate accurately between high attaining children and be more inclusive.

Its not about assuming that there will be jobs for the unskilled, but fearing that people will have no chance of gaining skills if they fail an exam which is not designed to test their abilities.

The point is: we need examinations to set the standard for the skills we require our children to attain.

The standards we require our children to attain in the wide range of skills they will need if they are to be gainfully employed for a living wage in future are high. So we set the exam bar higher.

We don't lower the exam bar so that the poor DCs don't have to work too hard. Or to preserve their feelings.

Curlew

My point about SEN statistics is - those children exist.
There are often physical / physiological / neurologial conditions why they are SEN or low achieving.
All the education in the world will never get them through the EBacc.

So lets ensure that through Btecs and Apprenticeships there are pathways to make best use of the skills they do have.

Same as we expect schools to stretch the super bright.

Gove - because he has never spent time in a non selective environment - likes to pretend that the left hand tail of the bell curve does not exist.
But it does.
It always did.
It always will.

They either have to be found work, given benefits or left to starve, but they will not vanish just because exam curricula are altered.

Apparently unemployment in France is relatively high at the moment.

Yes. Employment law is a killer here!

Thanks Bonsoir, my knowledge is a little shaky on it.

A lot of (not all!) lower achieving students don't score badly for lack of trying or lack of access to curriculum but because they simply can't do it no matter how hard they try. Their skill sets lie elsewhere.

I am not advocating the French system (it's full of cultural heritage problems too, though quite different ones to England) but there are bits of it that I think work better than their English alternatives.

For example, the examination system is more rigorous and less onerous. It falls down on the quality of the examination papers (for some subjects) and its unreliable marking.

But according to this site,
about-france.com/primary-secondary-schools.htm
only 64% of French pupils actually complete the baccalauréat
so over 1/3 of children in France are being left behind, unqualified for work, by the current system - even before the labour laws come into effect.

The baccalaureate is the equivalent of A-levels.

In France there is an examination at the end of Y10 - the brevet - and another examination at the end of Y13, the baccalauréat.

There are lots of alternatives to the bac. There are in fact two sorts of bac, the baccalauréat général (academic, taken in a lycée général and leads to university or equivalent) and the baccalauréat professionnel.

OK,
now I am confused, up the thread Bonsoir has been advocating the getting rid of Foundation papers so that all kids follow the same curriculum, like in France.
Now all these variants on the French system appear (the brevet clearly being a version of foundation paper and the bac prof being like btecs)

but I still cannot ascertain what the French system does with children who for reasons on neurophysiology cannot pass exams.

The brevet is the EBacc. The bac is A-levels.

the bac gen is a levels, the bac prof is btecs surely?
but what happens to kids not able to pass the brevet?
they must exist

The brevet is not a qualifying examination, unlike GCSEs. You don't need the brevet to carry on with your education. It is snapshot of achievement at the same point in time in education for everyone.

what happens to those who cannot achieve the brevet?

From my own experience I don't think the French system is very good at supporting SEN or lower-attaining pupils. I have done quite a bit of coaching for English here and have been shocked by the poor levels of basic literacy. I have had to teach French grammar to sixteen year olds, before we could start on English. SEN provision seems to me to be based around specialists coming in for doses of remediation rather than the progress of all pupils being seen as the responsibility of the teacher. I have only worked briefly in French schools and coached a limited number of children so I can't compare my experience with my years as a teacher, SENCO, adviser and inspector in England, but I know where I think provision is better.
I do think that is important not to confuse SEN and lower-attainers though. The needs of these groups may overlap, but they are different. At the beginning of my career in the seventies there certainly was a culture of low expectation of both groups, but that changed radically. It is unforgivable to have low expectations of either group, but I don't think that the vast majority of teachers or schools do have that view any more. Those that do will be challenged and there is a wealth of sophisticated data and a system of accountability to make that happen. Of course, I can only base this view on maintained schools.
What schools do need is a period of calm to enable them to get on with the implementation of sustained improvement. The press, politicians and armchair experts need to stop the constant carping, get out there and see what is really happening.

The French system is poor at dealing with SEN. A friend had to jack in her job and come home because her DD couldn't get the support she needed.

Here in the UK, she's taken 10 GCSEs and is now taking four A levels.

That said, I think their brevet is much clearer and fairer than our jumble of exams at 15/16.

We tell our DC that for a test to be fair and accurate, the variables must be controlled! And yet we test our young people in a myriad of ways. Then we try to insist that all those tests are equivalent, when it's obvious to anyone that they're not.

It's a giddy mess.

I think we should test as many DC as possible against the same measurement. Avoiding all this crap about boards, and BTECs, and iGCSEs.

For the minority who cannot even access the curriculum, we should use entirely different measures. If they even ought to be measured at all.

"I think we should test as many DC as possible against the same measurement. Avoiding all this crap about boards, and BTECs, and iGCSEs.

For the minority who cannot even access the curriculum, we should use entirely different measures. If they even ought to be measured at all."

Exactly.

I like the term 'giddy mess' going to incorporate that into my own vocab!

How does my Teacher friend relate to Talkinpeace Bell curve Theory.

A Grade G @ GCSE Maths at 16 yrs old At 30 yrs old : A Grade A at@ A level.and By 36 A Masters Degree in Chemistry .

She is brilliant with the D and E students , telling them how they are doing better than she did at their age. She also encourages them to believe that by 30 or so thinks can change , and that they should not give up on education at 16 or 17.

Another perception on here is that middle class kids with graduate parents , will always make sure their kids get the correct education. This was obviously not the case with my friend whose parents were both graduates and a sister being an Oxbridge graduate.

The point is you can not say that someone who achieves F and G grades at 16 cannot go on to better things in the 20s/30s or 40s. These ideas caused my friend to stay out of education to she was 26, Because she believed that she was "THICK". It was not her who was thick , more like the terrible education she was given that caused her "SCARS" with education.

The school had no strategies with dealing with her "Dyspraxia" and other symptoms , she was unable to put her thoughts and knowledge down on paper. Her handwriting was illegible and because teachers and students would laugh at her writing , she refused to write anything at all. She just stared out of the classroom window. Though her parents were graduates they just believed the school , when the school said J... was not very bright and it would be a waste of time taking GCSEs , although by law she had to take English and Maths. She told me she gained a G in Maths and a U in English.

My friend at 16 would surely be at the bottom of the Bell Curve, yet by 36 be at the the top of the Bell Curve.

From what I have read so far there are two altenratives for lower school education: Diplôme national du Brevet (DNB) or Certificat Formation Générale.

There seems to be two forms of the brevet also - Brevet technologique or Brevet professionelle?? The diploma awarded is on basis of marks in an exam in the final year and also marks awarded in class tests over the last two years of collège; with the marks from the latter having more weighting in the final diploma. The Brevet exam is three papers in French, Maths and Humanities (history/geography/civics) Also an IT paper. Seems to be a pass mark - about 10 out of 20 - but not sure what this equates to really. And the resultcan determine what school you then go to for your next part of education - the better the mark the better chnce you have of your first choice.

But what happens to those who don't pass?

The Certificat Formation Générale seems to be an alternative exam/diploma you can achieve instead of the Brevet - for those who want to do vocational courses/training

And prt of the Brevet mark is awarded for behaviour and attitude it seems

Hula I think the Brevet is like the American system, where attitude to class work and homework contributes the overall mark.

An overall mark is awarded for the brevet, with the usual French system of a mention très bien for an average above 16/20, mention bien for an average above 14/20, a mention assez bien for an average above 12/20 and a passable for an average mark above 10/20. An average below 10/20 is a fail.

However, each subject is graded individually with a mark out of 20. Hence an examination (in eg French), which is the same for everyone, is separate from the coursework component (basically an average of your report grades during the year). There is no amalgam of coursework and examination per subject.

And, like I said before, the brevet is not a qualifying exam (like GCSEs). Gaining a place at lycée is not dependent on passing the brevet (or even taking it) but on other factors.