There's a "culture of low expectation" in secondary schools. Do you agree?

[HelenMumsnet]

Hello. You may have seen/heard on the news today that Ofsted is warning that thousands of bright secondary-school-age children are being "systematically failed" at school.

And we'd like to know what you think about this.

Ofsted says there is a culture of low expectations in England's non-selective secondaries - meaning that, according to a new Ofsted report, more than a quarter (27%) of pupils who achieved the highest results in primary school fail to achieve at least a B grade in both their English and their Maths GCSE.

The most academically able, says Ofsted chief inspector Sir Michael Wilshaw, arrive "bright-eyed and bushy-tailed" from primary school, but things start "to go wrong very early. They tread water. They mark time. They do stuff they've already done in primary school. They find work too easy and they are not being sufficiently challenged."

Do you think this is a fair reflection of life at secondary school? Do you think your child's secondary school has a low expectation of its pupils/your child? Does/did your child "tread water" in Year 7? Do you wish secondary schools did more to challenge their more academically able pupils?

Please do tell!

Did your daughter go to NLCS, Xenia? Well blow me down...

Some homework is good, and some teachers are better at setting meaningful ones than others, I will certainly agree. WRT Viva's dd, I took the comments to mean that perhaps you needn't worry too much about hours of homework in year 7.... in my experience, you might start out with annoying posters (as in posters you design, I mean), but it soon turns a bit more challenging: don't wish it away, I say!

'Interesting' argument between my dds last night, as dd1 told dd2 she shouldn't spend so long on her music homework, in her world-weary 'I'm in year 11 and only I know what real work is' manner, because 'it's only music and you're only in year 7, just you wait' type thing. Told dd2 it's quite right to try as hard as you can at anything you're set, but I'm also not too fussed at the moment if what she's set isn't always too stretchy in its nature just yet.

Viva/Habba If your DC"s are Educated with kids whose abilty is C/B it is quite possible that they will come down to the norm within the class and become like their surrondings. That is why my niece achieved 4As at A level and is now at a Russell Group university studying french and business studies that was down to the expectations of her Grammar School, and though she is obviously academic i never thought of her that way because she was only normal within her friend group at School. The point i am making is that human beings adapt and become in sync to their surrondings and that in itself can lead to underachivement. It has to be very difficult in a non selective School where a B is very high to be able to focus on these type of DC"s who are often 2 years ahead of the pack.

beatback
my childrens' school is non selective, but their sets are not
the whole of the top set is expected to get A/A*
The next set A/B
The next set B-D
The next set D downwards
and the bottom set are just pleased to be literate.

I'm still waiting for a teacher to tell me that homework is not for the parents.

nit whilst I have some sympathy with not taking things too seriously in year 7, and I would never advocate hours of homework as necessary (neither of mine ever did that), I do think there's a lot to be said for getting each building block properly laid as you go along.

For one, many subjects keep building. And you can't really move on meaningfully until you've nailed the block below.

For another thing, doing the work as you go along is going to make those GCSEs a lot less daunting! Especially now they're all linear.

The teachers at DS school who know how to make linear work well, bang this drum all the time. Don't leave it til year 11...

talkin only someone as arrogant as you, would take radio silence as complete acceptance ...

TAlKIN PEACE. Is a D literate because earlier in this post there were some jokes about people with D being functionally iliterate which was not funny.

Interesting debate on homework.

DS gets daily homework, but it is relatively short and (mostly) rehearsal / securing what has been done in the lesson OR pre-learning so that the next lessons will be more interesting.

He does have some longer pieces, which are imaginative and interesting (Geography, mostly) or highly structured and very carefully assessed against grade boundaries (science).

I do know that a local-ish school sets much more homework ... but from a similar cohort gets much poorer results. DS's school (non-selective but nice catchment comp) works them VERY hard in lessons, though. I think it's sensible to look across the whole package of lessons + homework, rather than looking at homework in isolation...

OK, I'll bite. Homework is the thing parents conplain about. The same parents don't tend to help ensure that their DCs do homework, IME, so it becomes pointless.

Homework causes problems. Kids who don't do it need chasing. That takes time. They don't show up to the detention, so that needs further sanctions.

Also, homework is categorically not supposed to be about consolidating learning - check ofsted if you don't believe me. Homework has to extend learning, not consolidate it.

I don't set much homework- not at KS3 anyway. No parent has complained to me direct, it tends to be a general "he's not getting much homework"

So Evil if you could be pretty darn sure that your pupils did do their homework, could you utilise it for everyone's benefit?

Sorry I don't know what subject you teach and I don't know what KS3 is.

beatback
kids I know who got D at GCSE English are perfectly literate, but will never be writers.
clients who are illiterate (and I have several) failed GCSE English completely. And Maths. And Science.

Talkinpeace. Your clients know how to make money though. They not illiterate when it comes to paying too much tax they understand that bit of maths.

KS3 = Key Stage 3.
I teach Performing Arts.
The only homework I really set is line learning, as and when necessary.
Would I set it if I could guarantee they'd all do it? No. I dislike the idea of giving homework for the sake of it tbh. Students need to see the point if it. I am not totally against kids working independently, but setting homework just because it's Tuesday and Tuesday is homework day? No.

Fair enough. DS school never really seys drama homework either (pre GCSE) other than learning lines. Though that's kinda exactly what I'm talikng about. It makes no sense to learn them in class. Ditto it makes no sense to do things in class in most subjects.

That said, DD has always had plenty of drama homework from year 7. But the school takes the performing arts extremely seriously. There are tons of performances so tons of lines to learn. And they go and see a performance usually once a term so lots of study around that too. Lots of reading scripts etc

Absolutely building blocks - but some blocks are bigger than others, and some less tricky to nail. (with apologies to The Smiths)

We take it extremely seriously too! The kids I teach don't have the money to go on trips every term though Lots of performances and lots going on. My job makes me . I love it.

nit oh for sure nit and as I say, I'm not advocating tons of homework in year 7. Not at all. Just enough to make class work more efficient/more interesting etc.

evil I bet it's a lovely job!!!!!
And I'm sure that your school takes it seriously.

I just asked DD what her last drama homework was and she said she had to read the book and script for Lion Boy before they went to see the new show in Oxford.

She then missed the lessons that followed, but I suppose they talked about how the book had been adapted...though I'm surmising of course.

Evil twins. In Drama should classwork and homework, not be enjoyable as it gives kids who may struggle in other academic subjects a chance to be equal or better in performing. You may have a kid who has very poor literacy in English but has a great singing voice. Drama can offer kids a chance to shine and find themselves. This can also help them in other subjects ,because they can find confidence and that will mean that they will achieve their best.

Talkin, I was interested in your post to beatback where you broke the grades down set by set. It inspired me to look at our local comp's GCSE results. Do we think that the grades should be normally distributed? Here's a graph of a whole cohort in one subject: Histogam of GCSE results by grade. Anyone care to comment?

Can I ask what subject it represents pickled?

beatback - absolutely. Though of course there are also DC for whom Drama is their idea of hell. I firmly believe in confronting those demons though (the lack of confidence that is, not the actual children) as confidence development is hugely important. I guess I'm doing an ok job though - nearly 50% of the current yr 9 will be doing it as either a GCSE or BTEC next year

pickledsiblings
it tells me that A grades do not differentiate between bright students as the "tail" to the left should be roughly the same as to the right for any large cohort group.
If you set a MUCH harder exam with more grades, or showed actual marks rather than grades (on the assumption that only one student nationally would ever achieve 100%) the normal distribution would reappear

did you hear "The Life Scientific" with that wonderful statistician this week? I sat in my car listening to the end when I got to work!!

The pupils of William Tyndale High School are having a very hard time trying to cope with their teachers. Some of these teachers are polite and hard-working. others are high -spirited but bright enough and likely to do well. A very few,however probably those from problem homes- are very disturbed and every pupil knows that just one such teacher can completely disrupt a classroom. GUARDIAN 27 OCTOBER 1975. I thought i post this as a laugh.

Nothing changes really does it beatback. These unruly teachers need to be dealt with firmly. Bring back the cane and knock some sense into them.

I think we need to relax a little and accept that the world won't cave in if some children don't get 9A* GCSEs.