There's a "culture of low expectation" in secondary schools. Do you agree?

[HelenMumsnet]

Hello. You may have seen/heard on the news today that Ofsted is warning that thousands of bright secondary-school-age children are being "systematically failed" at school.

And we'd like to know what you think about this.

Ofsted says there is a culture of low expectations in England's non-selective secondaries - meaning that, according to a new Ofsted report, more than a quarter (27%) of pupils who achieved the highest results in primary school fail to achieve at least a B grade in both their English and their Maths GCSE.

The most academically able, says Ofsted chief inspector Sir Michael Wilshaw, arrive "bright-eyed and bushy-tailed" from primary school, but things start "to go wrong very early. They tread water. They mark time. They do stuff they've already done in primary school. They find work too easy and they are not being sufficiently challenged."

Do you think this is a fair reflection of life at secondary school? Do you think your child's secondary school has a low expectation of its pupils/your child? Does/did your child "tread water" in Year 7? Do you wish secondary schools did more to challenge their more academically able pupils?

Please do tell!

Whether a piece of work is going to be marked or not?

Evil - I am assuming that your girls regular practice the piano without any prompting from you. I am also assuming that they never complain or whinge. And if they do badly in their music exams that you won't be telling them that they could do better.

They're 6. Why would they be taking exams?

Oh, and of course they whinge. DTD1 whinged all the way through dinner. I assumed therefore that she was an unwilling participant in the consumption of broccoli. Still made her eat it though.

My DCs each got their Grade 1 distinctions when they were 6 so I guess that I fall neatly into your stereotype.

Yes you do. No surprises there.

I find it funny how you get all judgy pants over stuff that you don't agree with and then go on about making your DD eat broccoli even though she didn't want to. No double standards there eh? I mean, parents shouldn't decide for their children what is good for them unless it is your child.

aris
I don't glance, I sit and have coffee with the mums, who are my friends - and have been known to get roped into helping with maths homework, it being my thing
A good proportion of the work I see (from several private schools in the area) is padding.
That and kids who swap between the two sectors are at the same levels so it cannot be making that much of a difference (unless they were naturally not very bright and the private school has worked wonders).

Personally I do believe DH that teachers work a darned sight harder than the vast majority of parents give them credit for and that not all of the pushy mums' kids are as bright as one would think from these forums and that the hardest part of teaching is the social work and the politicians.

Is my understanding incorrect?

Defensive much Habba? The broccoli quip was merely making the point that I don't pretend my 6 yr old is up for things when she's clearly not. As her mother, though, I choose to enforce certain things. You made out that your DS was a willing participant in extra homework, having originally said that he moaned about it.

You're right, of course - your child, so you go about parenting the way you want. My children will
not be doing unnecessary exams though. I am not that kind of mother, you are. Swings and roundabouts.

I set homework every lesson, it is always meaningful and it is mark properly. I don't hate setting homework and I can't begrudge marking homework as that is my job. I actually enjoy seeing wat they do when they work independently.

Add message | Report | Message poster Talkinpeace Wed 19-Jun-13 17:38:54
beatback
my childrens' school is non selective, but their sets are not
the whole of the top set is expected to get A/A*
The next set A/B
The next set B-D
The next set D downwards
and the bottom set are just pleased to be literate.

I think parents do on the whole understand now hard we work and its amazes me that a lot think my job is far harder than it actually is. Day to day in my classroom I do not think about politicians or social work, they do have an influence over the bigger picture I guess

you are lucky then that you enjoy your work as much as you do and that your school has not been messed about by politics as much as many.
keep up the good work

Most teachers that I work with feel the same as me. We are aware of the politics but day to day it has little effect.

Why would you teach if you didn't enjoy it? Yes the pay is OK and the pensions are good but many teachers could earn more elsewhere. Other than the holidays , the big draw of the job is that it is so rewarding.

Defensive? Moi? You mean because you called me a drama teacher and I got upset? Nah, it's all white noise in cyberspace to me.

Thought we'd established I'd got over that.

aris
the sad thing is that many teachers have stopped enjoying it - hence why so many make it to 65 before taking retirement.
And being crapped on from on high will not persuade the waverers to stay.

DH chose not to teach in a school but he just loves what he does and jokes that even if certain other business plans came off he'd always put aside time to get that buzz of the lights turning on in 300 year 9 boys or seeing the spark light in year 2's (and their teachers)

I will retire before my time is up, not because I don't enjoy teaching but because there are lots of things I want to do. I know quite a few of my colleagues who are passionate about teaching have similar plans, so retirement patterns may not be a reflection of the happiness of the profession.

Sorry, I've read a lot of the thread but not all. Sorry if a point already made is being repeated.

Lots of children get level 5s (and remember there is now level 6 too) and if they all got A and A*, Gove would be moaning that the GCSEs are too easy. Woops. He is already doing that. It is right that primaries cram for SATs. They have to or they get hammered by Ofsted. This is not right, but it is a matter of fact.

Primaries have brilliant pastoral care. They have a long history with a child and tend to know families very, very well. In primary staffrooms, there is lots of talk about families where staff can update each other or discuss concerns. There is simply not the capacity to do this to the same extent or to react as quickly in senior school.

Primaries have the capacity to fill gaps that secondaries do not. If I have a Y6 child who is not going to hit targets in maths, I can shuffle the curriculum so that the child gets extra support. This is very difficult to achieve in secondary.

I'm fed up with the DfE and Ofsted moaning. They don't have real solutions.

I just think most state schools are doing a brilliant job. The national curriculum ensures that content is there, Ofsted deals with quality. What lets children down is inequality, caused by competetion, on a school, class and a personal level leaving children feeling second class or ignored.

There is no such thing as an inherently 'bright' child. They learn to be become bright.

I don't think that the criticisms are contradictory.

In 2012 90% of kids at DS's selective scored A or A* in the core GCSE subjects. Based on that, Gove is right. Too many people are getting As.

If instead of going to this school, DS went to the unimpressive non selective that he was allocated, he might not get all those As.

The school would have failed him because he started school life at KS L5 and he most likely wouldn't get such a clean sweep of As. At the same time a lots of the kids at the selective will have translated those L5s into As.

Habba You don't know what he would have got if had gone to a normal school. He could have come out with better schooling, one that is more creative or diverse. This is what could give children the leading edge when they are competiting in the workplace in the future.

We have friends from primary school who are going to that school. Teacher stands up and talks. Homework is occasionally set and often not marked. DS reckons that he is about 18 months ahead of his mate's.

So, yes i do know what kind of schooling he would have got had he gone there.

And why do you assume that he is not getting a creative or diverse schooling at his selective?

Habba - unless you've been to the school, you have absolutely no idea what the lessons are like. If it's as you describe, the school would be in special measures. Is it?

"DS reckons that he is about 18 months ahead of his mate's [sic]."

We had a child come from a selective private (primary) into one of my classes. She, and her parents, had been fed the line that she was working 2 years ahead of a state school, and parents were very upset that she was having to transfer to an 'ordinary village primary'.

She went straight onto our SEN list. Not only was she not 2 years ahead, she was nearly 2 years behind the majority of my class.

Now, I am not suggesting that in your son's case the situation is as extreme - but are you sure that his information is absolutely accurate? What NC level is he achieving at at the moment? How many children at the non-selective who were achieving exactly at the same level as he was at the end of primary are achieveing at that level? Of course, comparing a child at a selective with a child drawn at random from a non-selective will, statistically, mean that the child from the non-selective is working at a lower level - the non-selective has the full range of abilities whereas the selective does not, so that is a simple statistical truth. What you need to do is track ability matched children over a long period of time.

Habba he still might not get them.... Not to be the voice of doom, but counting chicks and all that! Your posts above make an awful lot of speculative assumptions about both schools, not to mention the future and a hypothetical parallel universe where he went to the other school. It's a bit like me saying I know for sure dd would be snobby/anorexic/unhappy by now for absolute sure if she'd gone to a different school!