There's a "culture of low expectation" in secondary schools. Do you agree?

[HelenMumsnet]

Hello. You may have seen/heard on the news today that Ofsted is warning that thousands of bright secondary-school-age children are being "systematically failed" at school.

And we'd like to know what you think about this.

Ofsted says there is a culture of low expectations in England's non-selective secondaries - meaning that, according to a new Ofsted report, more than a quarter (27%) of pupils who achieved the highest results in primary school fail to achieve at least a B grade in both their English and their Maths GCSE.

The most academically able, says Ofsted chief inspector Sir Michael Wilshaw, arrive "bright-eyed and bushy-tailed" from primary school, but things start "to go wrong very early. They tread water. They mark time. They do stuff they've already done in primary school. They find work too easy and they are not being sufficiently challenged."

Do you think this is a fair reflection of life at secondary school? Do you think your child's secondary school has a low expectation of its pupils/your child? Does/did your child "tread water" in Year 7? Do you wish secondary schools did more to challenge their more academically able pupils?

Please do tell!

Exactly. A Maths degree alone doesn't confer skills that are in high demand at work unless you are some sort of maths superstar.

Talkin - you tend to be quite dismissive of other people's opinions on education. From that I got it into my head that you was a teacher rather than an accountant. Sorry, it won't happen again.

I agree about not doing A level in Accounts. Its not a traditional subject so some unis won't recognize it. Plus a lot of it is bookkeeping which is great.... if you want to be an accounts technician. However, I don't see how a maths degree is expanding her options.

I grant you that a maths degree will open career paths like being an actuary. But IMO it closes more doors than it opens.

As I said upthread, a lot of these jobs only recruit the best of the best ie a First from a highly ranked uni. If that isn't that girl then she is going to be standing in the same job queue as all the graduates with degrees in English and Chemistry.

And I am not advocating doing a degree in accountancy. The accountants in our office that I am friends with have degrees in business administration, international finance, finance and French and economics. Ok, they can't jump ship and become actuaries for example but I suspect that they have more options then a graduate with a maths degree

And if she still wants to be an accountant she will be competing for a coveted training contract with other equally academic graduates who have knowledge of the business world and who may have taken advantage of placement/internship programs.

Bonsoir - one of my IT guys has a Physics degree from Cambridge and a PhD from some US university that I never heard off. I once naively asked him why he was in IT.

His answer was similar to yours ie if you aren't the best of the best then some grad with a sociology degree stands the same chance of getting that research job :)

By the way Talkin, being a maths geek isn't that many rungs (if any) higher on the Cool Ladder compared to an accounting 'anorak' :)

Wonderingagain - yes its good that she's keeping up but if she's keeping up with no work then is the level of the top set high enough? That's my concern.

She reckons she wants to do biochemistry at uni.....well she needs AAB at a-level and that won't come unless she pulls her finger out her backside.

Wonderingagain, it seems your children are in classes that are providing them with the right level of challenge.

If some academically able pupils are not getting appropriate challenge in class should we just shrug our shoulders? Yes to respecting and valuing all but some academic skills are worth nurturing for the good of everyone.

Maybe if more of the roles requiring a high level of academic success were occupied by those from comprehensives , the "academically superior" wouldn't appear to be looking upon others as losers.

Where is this academically superior labelling the less able as losers thing coming from?

My Year 8 DD recently did her end of year exams at her selective. The papers were GCSE standard and she scored a slate of As and A*s. GCSEs aren't that difficult which isn't something that you want to hear if your (general 'your') Year 12 is predicted a 'D' for example. But observing that something is easy for something that others find hard is not by default that person feeling superior.

It was in a post upthread.

Viva posted that her DD is in the top set but is coasting. Wondering's response is that Viva should be happy since her DD is in the top set.

Why should Viva be happy if her DD is coasting?

At the risk of sounding antagonistic (who? moi?) this is the kind of attitude that the OP is talking about. A bright child is not operating to her full potential but since she is doing ok relative to everyone else then the answer is not to challenge her academically. Instead the 'answer' is to find extra curriculum stuff to detract from the academic boredom.

Viva
The fact that your DD does not have lots of homework may not mean that she is coasting.
Teachers hate setting lots of homework - because they have to make it in evening and at weekends.
But parents at fee paying and selective schools expect it as proof that their DCs are working hard.
It is not particularly for the benefit of the kids or the teachers but to placate the parents that homework is set.

Talkin the poster compared her DD with DC at grammar school she didn't mention private!

Are those DC given homework just to appease parents too?

rolls eyes at ridiculous over generalisation...

My comment was "fee paying and selective" and yes, it is the case.
Roll your eyes all you like. Its the truth.

Honestly talkin you set yourself up as the expert on every independent and selective state school in the country?

Oh and every comprehensive too?

Making pronouncements about what every single school in a sector does or doesn't do, just makes you look daft at best...

The reality isthat homework in all types of school can be done for the benefit of all concerned!

Students can be asked to do things at home, that there is no point to do collectively, then collective time can be used more wisely.

But you do have to have a cohort who will do it!

If you don't, then you have to do those tasks in class. Thus wasing time, particularly for the more able and willing students who could have done it in half the time alone!

This happens in all types of school.

I'll let all the teachers on these boards answer first.

I agree, wordfactory - a lot of the learning tasks that require rehearsal and repetition are much better done at home, as are tasks that require hard thought and head scratching, where time spent on task varies wildly from child to child.

Yes, I'd be interested to hear from MFL teachers who wouldn't rather their students do their rote learning at home.

Or an English teacher who wouldn't like sometimes to have the class read a chapter at home so the class come prepared and ready to have a discussion.

Or a Latin teacher who wouldn't like students to learn their conjugations at home...

Or a maths teacher who wouldn't like pupils to consolidate what waslearned in class...

DD's history homework last week was to research WWI ie dates, who fought who and where.

In the lesson they quickly disposed of the facts and moved on to how the events afterwards led to the rise of the Nazi movement and what lessons were learned and applied by the Allies after the end WWII ie don't bug out and let the extremist take over the country :)

Just because some teachers hand out pointless 'make a poster' homework, don't assume that is the norm.

How come university lecturers never get accused of setting 'homework' in order to placate parents paying £9k pa in tuition fees?

It's interesting how posters, in an attempt to disprove the OP, are in fact confirming it.

Your child is coasting? She is at same level as her classmates so be happy. Find her some afterschool activity to distract her from the academic boredom.

Homework? Waste of time. Turn up to the lesson and listen to the teacher churn out the facts. Be happy with that.

Its also interesting that pupils are always being encouraged to be self motivtaed and independent learners...yet doing stuff outside the classroom is just a waste of time apparently.

In France, there has been a lot of discussion at state level about abolishing/reducing homework on the grounds that homework is unfair to less privileged pupils.

However, it is the less privileged families that clamour for homework. Privileged families know that they can help their children get ahead on their own...

I thin North London Collegiate (my daughter's school) had a policy of no holiday or weekend homework which I always thought was rather good. Another of my children at an equally selective school had a school with a no homework in holidays policy too.

My children at the moment do just about all homework at school which I can't imagine is the best way to do it but they seem to have a thing about it at the moment so I am letting them get on with it for now. I used to do some of mine on a school coach after swimming and still did pretty well. It's a nice feeling when everything is done and over and you're free.

DD gets far more homework than DS, and she's at a far less selective school.

Though she does make more of it too ...

Equally 'interesting' are the comments about how a lot of selective kids do badly at uni because they are spoonfed.

As opposed to the kids who do nothing but write notes as the teacher lectures?