There's a "culture of low expectation" in secondary schools. Do you agree?

[HelenMumsnet]

Hello. You may have seen/heard on the news today that Ofsted is warning that thousands of bright secondary-school-age children are being "systematically failed" at school.

And we'd like to know what you think about this.

Ofsted says there is a culture of low expectations in England's non-selective secondaries - meaning that, according to a new Ofsted report, more than a quarter (27%) of pupils who achieved the highest results in primary school fail to achieve at least a B grade in both their English and their Maths GCSE.

The most academically able, says Ofsted chief inspector Sir Michael Wilshaw, arrive "bright-eyed and bushy-tailed" from primary school, but things start "to go wrong very early. They tread water. They mark time. They do stuff they've already done in primary school. They find work too easy and they are not being sufficiently challenged."

Do you think this is a fair reflection of life at secondary school? Do you think your child's secondary school has a low expectation of its pupils/your child? Does/did your child "tread water" in Year 7? Do you wish secondary schools did more to challenge their more academically able pupils?

Please do tell!

and to Boneybackjefferson. Just love it!

I'm sure many on here will also be castigating social workers while spending their bank bonus.

The social issues of our country are evident in schools and it takes years of dedication to break down a generational problem of low aspirations in a family. Culturally, we have never really sold education to ordinary workforce - is changing slowly. Hence, many middle class families opt out of comps.

We had to use a comp for our DS with a history of SEN. Fab school, great ofsteds, very highly regarded. problem is always the behaviour of a few which is sad. He did well except in GCSe where there was disruption. A level seems much better where they can send away the naughties!! Sad. So many resources are needed to tackle poor social skills and low aspirations in pupils. Possibly we do the less academic a disservice with our curriculum.

Put out a report based on dodgy statistics criticising whatever they are targeting. Then flog it off to one of their mates under the radar.

It's becoming this government's MO.

I agree with Hully up thread. Also I believe as a society we have lost cognizance of "well educated" and there is a huge difference between being well educated rather than well qualified. I would go for the former and that I believe is what we are paying for at our DC's independent schools - something more of the "all round" and teaching to their personal potential.

I went from private primary to state grammar (amazingly). In the early 70s there was no pressure whatsoever I just passed the 11+. Even at grammar school only the brightest were expected to get 9 O'Levels and go to university. I left at 16 and did a secretarial course and an OND. Started a degree but left after a couple of terms - then went to finishing school . I was never ever regarded as university material - am 53 now and have professional quals and an MBA. But, I was well educated and I was expected to have the skills to earn my own living and I was numerate and literate.

When I started work the well educated bit and the ability to hold a conversation, show interest and smile served me well. It is so sad that the value of a rounded, functional education has been lost at the expense of a points driven grading system which results in pieces of paper being awarded in too many cases to the unemployable.

Good comments married in white again.

The concentrating on Cs is not an urban myth where I live. I have a friend who is a TA at a secondary school, employed specifically to work in classes with borderline D/C grade children. The best school in our area has a similar focus. If you want your child to be stretched beyond average, you have to hassle the school. But I live in a county whose schools are close to bottom on the national overall league tables. It seems logical to me that you would direct your work towards the criteria that you are measured on, and if league tables are compiled on the basis of pupils achieving at least a C at GCSE, then that's what schools will be devoting their energies towards.

Just because they have employed a TA to work with C/D borderliners it does not mean everyone else gets ignored.

Schools try to meet all criteria but it is true if C's are the measure then they are the emphasis for survival - literally for some of these Heads.

But we have been told by people who should know that Cs are not the measure of success.....

It occurs to me as well that for a not particularly academic young person going out into the workplace or hoping to go to college getting at least a couple of Cs would be absolutely vital- hard enough with them but practically impossible without. So it seems entirely reasonable that a school should channel resources into these kids- it might benefit the school for them to get Cs, but it's absolutely bloody crucial for the kids concerned. The difference in some cases between training, or a job or a life on the dole.

I presume that there are a few paths in life where having Bs instead of As might make a difference to you- but the number of doors closed if you've got Ds instead of Cs is overwhelming. Schools do not always act out of total self interest.......

Bryte the C\D border Teachers/TAs are seem especially prevalent in schools in poor areas so if you are an able child in those schools you will most likely not get extra the help ,which a child in a mc comp, grammar or indie would, to help you meet your potential.

Maybe the children on the D/C border need the extra help?

Just a thought.........

Looking at the bigger picture all countries need an educated elite who can compete for the top influential positions , provide innovation, create jobs for others and pay a lot of tax. In the UK the top 1% of earners contribute 25% of all taxes and 53% of the population take more than they contribute in taxes. If the top jobs are taken by non Brits we will not benefit from their taxes in he long term.

I agree curlew that the really able children should not need so much extra help - just attending the normal lessons and putting in the right amount of effort should be enough. Some of those C/D borderlines could well be very much on the D side of the border and could need considerable support to push them to the C side of the boundary. (Not sure if all this pushing is right though as results may not reflect children's true abilities)

Having produced children encompassing all the levels I am quite delighted that the C/D's are concentrated on and given extra help. Dd2 falls into this and the school has worked really hard with her this year, and it will hopefully mean she will be able to do the college course she wants to rather than one that will take her despite poor grades. However if the school had enthused and helped her earlier on they may not have been in this position now.

Dd2 (at a different comp) is very much A/A* material, and is stretched but we don't know if it will be enough or whether for A levels she should go to a very selective independent; that will be the subject of a whole new thread. One day she came home from school absolutely furious - they had been asked what job they were aspiring to and when she said barrister, the teacher asked if she wanted to work in Costa or Starbucks.

Ds (year 7) is at the same school as dd3 and is already having lots of extra help (both he and dd2 are dyslexic) so hopefully we will not end up in the same position as we have with dd2.

One problem I have noticed with my less academic children is the poverty of anything they can achieve in. Dd2 is very good at sewing so has taken textiles, but there is very little sewing involved and an awful lot of written work, which of course doesn't suit her, and exactly the same in food tech - at thirteen she could produce a three course meal for 12 (with 2 choices for each course), but this is completely irrelevant to the examining bodies. There must be a vast number of children feeling totally demoralised by the current education system.

"when she said barrister, the teacher asked if she wanted to work in Costa or Starbucks"

'twas just an attempt at humour, no?

""when she said barrister, the teacher asked if she wanted to work in Costa or Starbucks"

'twas just an attempt at humour, no?"

Bloody hell, somebody didn't post this as a serious remark, did they??????

I asked that pickled, and she was adamant he was serious. She is always quite shocked at the poverty of ambition amongst her friends, even one who is as bright as she is doesn't think university is for her.

"Some of those C/D borderlines could well be very much on the D side of the border and could need considerable support to push them to the C side of the boundary. (Not sure if all this pushing is right though as results may not reflect children's true abilities)"

In this case, I think hat sometimes the pushing is vital- I have a neighbour who has set her heart on, and has been accepted for, a course in harness making. She needs 4 Cs- and it will be a real achievement for her when (fingers crossed) she gets them. Her school is going all out to help her- and in my opinion it is a much better use of the teacher's time (assuming such choices have to be made) than applying similar resources to get another child from A to A*.

My children don't always get dry teacher humour either......

Two generations ago nobody would have needed 4 C's for a vocational career. Nurses only needed 3 passes when I did O'Levels. Youg people without paper qualifications were still well educated. My gradparents did not have a single qualification (my granny didn't even go to school after the age of about 12 I think) but they had perfect grammar, granny in particular was like a human calculator and they were at ease conversing with anyone. The entire system is bonkers. At 11 or 12 both my DC could write more articulately than my boss who had three masters degrees!!

"Two generations ago nobody would have needed 4 C's for a vocational career"

Well, they do now, and schools have to operate in the now.

I do wonder about all these "everybody's great grandparents were perfectly educated even though they left school at 14" claims. Is there actually any evidence to support this? What about all the adult illiteracy-!documents signed with shaky crosses and so on?

I am sure it was a attempt at humour, though that might be lost on a teenager who has grown up thinking that it is perfectly normal to call someone who sells coffee, 'a barrista'. Perhaps you have to be of a certain age to find that play on words amusing.

In this case, I think hat sometimes the pushing is vital- I have a neighbour who has set her heart on, and has been accepted for, a course in harness making. She needs 4 Cs- and it will be a real achievement for her when (fingers crossed) she gets them. Her school is going all out to help her- and in my opinion it is a much better use of the teacher's time (assuming such choices have to be made) than applying similar resources to get another child from A to A*.

I can only agree with you there. I know some very selective 6th forms ask for an A at GCSE to do some A levels, but, as far as I know, none ask for an A*. And there are always other 6th forms who are less demanding in terms of prior achievement.

But the point is that 4 Cks are useless if upon reaching the workplace or adult life in general the employee is functionally illiterate and innumerate in spite of having a GCSE certificate. If a C can be reached without instilling the ability to construct a grammatically correct sentence or convert a decimal or a fraction to percentage and understand the process of doing so what exactly is the use of the qualification. What is the point of tipping from a D to a C so the person can enrol onto a higher course they will find too difficult or will again have to be extra coached to pass. It inflates expectation and does not leave the young person equipped to follow a career path successfully once they are employed and judged on their actual capability.

I do wonder about all these "everybody's great grandparents were perfectly educated even though they left school at 14" claims. Is there actually any evidence to support this? What about all the adult illiteracy-!documents signed with shaky crosses and so on?

Depends how far you go back but when the school leaving age was 14, and previously 13, children of the full ability range left school at that age. So some people's parents, grandparents, and great grandparents would have been doing very well when they had to leave school and would have been very happy to have continued in education if they had had the opportunity. They would have continued reading and writing and practicing what they had already learned and, through reading, would have educated themselves. Other school leavers of the same age would have learned very little and been only too happy to have left school at the earliest opportunity. I think my PiL represented both ends of this spectrum.

Well, I'm not sure that somebody with a C in GCSE would be "functionally illiterate", would they?

And, using my neighbour as an example, what would you suggest? She has the place on the course, there is plenty of work for people who complete the course- and she needs 4 Cs. She is smart, but not even remotely academically clever. She will only get the 4 Cs with lots of help and encouragement. Are you saying the school should not be providing the support?