Winchester College Open Day

[bico]

Anyone going this Saturday? Ds is in year 4 and keen to have a look, I think mainly because they have an 18 hole golf course .

Anyone going to Winchester Day Match next week?

My DS told us not to bother!

"I would suggest you take your DS"
I agree. The problem is that they (and we) look at schools like WC and Eton at such an early age its so easy for them their views (and ours) to be swayed by 200 acres of manicured playing fields, Olympic sized pools and books dating back to the 13th century. The reality is that its not these things that make a school.
We as parents also look at it through the eyes of the current age of our children ut also see other things through adults eyes; we see scruffy houses/small dorms/single dorms/immaculate houses and think that this is what matters because this info is easily quantifiable and comparable and we're paying a lot of money, but it isn't surely thats not what education/schools are about.

IMO a lot of the devil is in the micro detail; one well known boarding school doesn't allow even its 6th formers to get a taxi to the nearest big town to to the cinema on Sunday afternoon or allow any children into the local town without uniform on. None of the children are allowed to eat in either a cafe or restaurant in the town the school is based. To my mind these are petty pointless rules treating adolescence like toddlers would I have felt differently when my DS was 9 yrs old? Many do find this irritating but as parents and children these sort of details are often not discovered until your actually there. Maybe some of you on MN may agree with these rules? We seriously considered SPS but my DS (who was only 11 at the time when we were deciding) would have had to have got the train into London and then taken the underground on a Sun night and then either got a taxi or walked through the oh so scary Hammersmith Broadway often in the dark! We just couldn't see him doing it but then were rural, friends in London couldn't see the problem and my DH regularly did it when he was 13.
Other things to consider; I personally believe that every house should have a resident matron but many parents assume this is happening and then are a bit shocked when they discover its not not the norm or don't realise the implications of a non resident matron. Do also ask about finishing a day early at the end of term etc especially if your abroad and if it is full boarding can your DC come out on a Saturday night for his grand mothers 100th birthday party. If the answer is no never do you mind or are you always going to irritated by it.
Finally with regard to this comment
"Certainly for Winchester boys who are involved in extracurricular activities in addition to the mixing that goes on in lessons, their circle of friends is large and the house system does not sound claustrophobic although boys may find it initially easier to have close bonds to other boys in their house and are certainly very loyal to their houses."
Again IME boys do make friends outside of their houses as already said they have lessons with others houses and participate in extra curricular activities but if my DS goes to someone else's home on a Sunday its always with boys from his own house. But I suspect this is common in most boarding houses although if they are coed maybe less so. He knew and liked two boys who were also starting at WC at the same time as him (different houses) he was telling me the other day that he never see's either of them their paths just simply don't cross they are not in any of his lessons or share his extra curricular activities.

I intend to take ds on every school visit I can as he does have a different perspective from me. Eg he wasn't bothered by all the first years sharing a dorm in the Winchester house we visited (I couldn't imagine sleeping in a room with 13 others). He was bothered about eating in house rather than centrally as he worried this could limit his friendships. He met a boy on the open day that he liked and said that if they weren't in the same house or doing the same activities they would never see each other. It seems from what you say this is sadly true.

Having had a further conversation with ds over the weekend he is keen to go somewhere that will ensure he gets the best GCSEs and A level results (or whatever they will be called by the time ds sits them). He says he knows that they are important for his future (I'm wondering who he has been talking to, as it isn't something we've discussed).

I'm impressed at his maturity for someone who is not yet 9. It also helps explain my worries over senior school choices. All I wanted for prep school was for ds for ds to be happy and enjoy learning. The stakes for senior school are so much higher and harder to get right.

"The stakes for senior school are so much higher and harder to get right."
The good news is that most do get it right every school will loose a small % usually within the first couple of terms but IME the vast majority of children seem happy and just get on with it. Most independent schools now have high expectations (most customers parents are paying or better results than they believe they would get in the state sector) and the bright are likely to be given every opportunity to do well in public exams. Super selctives can go way beyond the curriculum a school like WC provides a whole raft of intellectual stimulation either as extra curricular activities or within the classroom itself and more and more staff have PHD's and for the super bright boy whose got a real gift and interest in a particular area this must be heaven sent but does this actually impact on A level results or is it learning for the sake of learning (not that there's anything wrong with this) I cant answer this, it may impact on the grade at the much harder Pre U but I cant be sure.
But I am unconvinced that this means that the bright wont do as well in terms of exam results in a less selective environments. I only have to look at our local completely non selective 6th form college where its very obvious that the very able seem to be pulling in the top grades.

My DD is at Wincol and hubby and I have drawn the conclusion that (a) it's not value for money (if architecture, history and greenery was so important we could have always gone to Hampton Court!) (b) the pastoral care is a figment of their imagination (where on earth do they get these Housemasters from? The food is atrocious and persistently lacking in quality and quantity except for tomorrow at Winchester Day where, if you go, you will be treated to fabulous food - for my part I would rather give it back, save the money and let the boys eat well and (c) IGCE's really do not carry any more weight than they'd have us believe because unless your boys are going to get 6 x A's (pre-requisite for Wincol Sixth Form) and the subjects offered only include predominantly core subjects (so you can't pad out with, say, art or an easier subject) you might find yourself, to some extent, well and truly ***. We are now left in the position, having paid £33,000 for last year plus extras, where we are having to consider entering ours for an extra GCSE's (starting over summer hols) just to be on the safe side as ours do not excel in Maths, Latin or Chinese which will diminish the amount of IGCSE's they get to probably 5. The local Sixth Form College just want 5 and IGCE's carry the same weight as GCSE's - A-C is preferable but even F is a pass. - Sorry, I appear to have started ranting! Does anyone want to buy me a drink at lunchtime ?

Art is a lovely subject. I wasn't criticising.

Tob an interesting prospective. I personally have never been bothered/interested in the buildings it never was a selling point for us but then we were seriously considering St Pauls which is hardly an architectural marvel.
IME experience the pastoral care is pretty good our HN seems pretty committed to the boys but then my DS is happy so I obviously can't comment on what happens if they're not.
With regard to the IGCSE's I personally have never been told by anyone at the school that they carry more weight than GCSE's although this doesn't mean their aren't harder. I do understand from a friend who's a Latin teacher Latin teacher (not at WC) who teaches both GCSE/IGCSE/AS/A level that that the IGCSE Latin is at least AS standard and to get an A* you cant "wing" it unlike the IGCSE and one of the set text for this year would normally only be found on an A level paper. Having spent the last 2 months assisting DS1 revising for his science GCSE's I hope the science IGCSE's are of higher standard becasue frankly I was stunned by how basic they were.

"the subjects offered only include predominantly core subjects (so you can't pad out with, say, art or an easier subject)"
What did you expect this an academic school? If you want film/media studies your in the wrong place all Pre U options are clearly stated on their website and art is offered at Pre U at least it was the last time I looked.
The school are asking for 6 A's at IGCSE to get into the 6th form but I think you will find that St Pauls et al. will also be asking for this in fact I believe that for my DS's year they are asking for 4 A's at IGCSE and I and others thought they told us when we started that they wanted 6 A's at IGCSE to get into the 6 th form.
I've heard lots of stories about the food in various houses. The food in my DS's house is certainly edible (we've ate their twice with the boys not on the Winchester Match day) and the boys told me that their house has a reputation for having some of the "best food" although I would be the first to admit its definitely school food.

Finally I believe the school is changing, the school is looking at becoming an international centre of excellence and I think that over time they are going to weed out from both the selection process and those actually at the school the less able the "also runs". I think they have decided to make this "international centre of academic excellence" their USP. If they are going to compete in the "global village" that we now all live in thye believe their aim has to be school full of straight A*'s at IGCSE and D1/D2 at Pre U and most of the boys going to to leading universities around the world.

I'm not entering into a discussion on the rights and wrongs of this. But I do know that my DS who was very unhappy at his boarding prep (where when the push came to the shove the pastoral care was non existent) is thriving at WC, all the dons I have met have been committed to the boys and my DS feels happy and supported in all aspects of his life, academically he has also never done better and having just received the end of year exams results frankly we're stunned at how well he's doing he's absolutely flying. But I've repeatedly said its not a school for every very bright able boy but then no where is.

"our HN seems pretty committed"
HM not HN.

Tobe, I am sure you are right that the fees in part are higher since they contribute to the upkeep of the buildings, unfortunately that's part of the reality of the Winchester college 'package'. For DS, HM and pastoral care has been excellent (and the food rather good in his house) and in fact we have been delighted by the result of the school rather than us selecting the house for DS (as a late applicant).
Your experience underlines that if the range of subjects does not fit a boy's strengths and interests then it may leave that boy under performing at IGCSE level with subsequent sixth form entry difficulties. Possibly difficult to predict with certainty at 13 but definitely a factor to consider when making final decisions selecting the school.

"We are now left in the position, having paid £33,000 for last year plus extras, where we are having to consider entering ours for an extra GCSE's (starting over summer hols) just to be on the safe side as ours do not excel in Maths, Latin or Chinese which will diminish the amount of IGCSE's they get to probably 5."
So Tob if I understand you correctly (apologies if I dont) your DS(s) are now going to prepare for (I)GCSE's outside of school because you think they're not going to get A's in three subject and therefore not be allowed to stay at WC for the 6th form. For a start I thought all boys took 9 IGCSE's so that leaves 6 subjects to get A's. Secondly obviously I dont know where you live but have they got time to do this? My DS who rather surprisingly towards the very end of his prep school education turned out to have a natural ability at Latin/Ancient Greek when he opted not to continue Ancient Greek at WC toyed with the idea of doing it as an external candidate admittedly not sitting the GCSE but AS level at the end of yr 9. But the work load is pretty large at WC and he would have only been able to meet with his Ancient Greek tutor during exeats and holidays and thus he decided that his chance of getting a top grade were significantly diminished so he shelved the idea.
Surely its better for your DS(s) to concentrate on getting A's in the subjects they do at school rather than taking on more GCSE's which they will have to study outside of school with out the support of WC.

Following on from that, one possibility would be to swap Mandarin to German or Spanish (which are the alternatives in the curriculum) so that he / they could be taught it during school time after extra work in the summer. My DD does Mandarin and it does require a lot of careful memorising, definitely not to everybody's liking although IME non native speakers can get high grades at IGCSE / GCSE level

Can he swap? I guess it depends what year the boy(s) are in. If they are in yr 10 I suspect its too late. I was told by the don who teaches Mandarin that it gets easier as you go along.

If T0b your DS(s) is only in yr 9 then isn't it a bit early to be thinking they wont get A's in some of the IGCSEs.
Even in September last yr I and his teachers thought DS1 (not at WC) wouldn't even get an F in maths GCSE he got a C in Feb and is predicted a B in the higher paper which he has just sat so don't despair yet.

Looks like we may be having another look at Winchester. The registrar visited ds's school yesterday and met with ds and three other boys. Ds only one from his year, one of the other boys was year 7 and has a place and two year 6s (not sure what their plans are).

According to ds he spent the morning in the head's office chatting to the registrar (I doubt it was that long!). The registrar told him all about Winchester football and how it is played. I'm not sure whether the registrar asked to meet him because we'd been to the open day or whether ds's school put him forward. Either way ds has taken it as confirmation that the head would support ds applying to Winchester (I'm not so sure but have a meeting next week to discuss senior school options).

Sorry, been away so got behind in this thread.
Any ideas where to get past Election papers from? Could't see anything on website..
I know it's early to say but at the moment DS loves the idea of College, the gown and of cause to be called a "scholar" - appreciate it might change by the time he is 13

Sounds as though he might be a natural then particularly if he likes the historic feel of the Chambers. DS did Election questions in school so your DS's school would be the best place to ask initially, if not I assume you can request them from Winchester. Probably best not to overlap with any past papers his school might want to use to practise exam conditions. If his school has some experience of Election or King's scholarship then you can leave it entirely to them!

piano ask the admissions office they're always really helpful.

Thanks . Still had not been able to discuss this with current school - HM is away on a field trip.

Some schools don't like to give past papers so it's good to know WC is not one of them.

Also meant to add that I've heard rumours that they are now going to pre test for the election as too many sit it many of whom are not of sufficient calibre. Don't know how true this is might be worth asking.
We obtained copies of the normal entrance exam from the admissions office.

piano, for Election past papers, you need to ask either Ian Fraser, Master in College (HM) or his assistant Mrs Robertson. Main admissions can only provide Entrance past papers.

It is very common for prep schools to judge a boy's Election capability according to how well he does in maths which is misguided for two reasons: CE or even GCSE style of maths provides practically no preparation for Election maths, and some boys who struggle with regular CE or Entrance do find Election much easier; likewise, many who soar in CE (and even A* A-level boys) struggle with Election maths. I have seen more than one GCSE teacher and expert tutor for Election/KS getting completely stuck on a question which warned that there was no point trying to get to an answer with a calculator (far too many digits) and they were so stuck that they tried it on their calculators and got nowhere. Yet, the maths required was definitely within the capability and knowledge of a 8 or 9 year old. Very entertaining watching that.

Your DS is always the best judge by far. Same is true for all the other compulsory and optional papers. It is not uncommon to hear that boys found Election exams fun. They are NOT testing for knowledge in Election, instead they want to see profound understanding with evidence that the boy worked it out or thought it through himself, and in all papers, they want to see his way of thinking. Vast majority of questions either do not have right or wrong answers or have many answers.

No point dwelling too much on past Election papers beyond getting a feel for the style of question. Practising past papers works for regular exams but will not help Election. If a prep school is serious about preparing its boys for Election, then it would come up with its own Election style questions and play with them everyday instead of teaching (stealth teaching of knowledge through them). So, don't worry about overlaps or exam conditions and so on. There are dozens and dozens of situations and topics in our everyday life that could be used as impromptu "practice", lots we take for granted actually have multiple perspectives (very grey) or need profound understanding of otherwise simple concepts to explain. IMO, it is not the sort of preparation best suited to school environment.

It is not about "intelligence" either; it is sad that Election/Collegemen are generally labelled as more clever or more able or College is more prestigious, simply not so. He either has that style of mind/thinking College is looking for and it is evident already or it is still latent that requires coaxing out, or he has another style. Very hard to teach that and I feel strongly that trying mold a boy into a different style of thinking could cause more harm than good.

That's very interesting term. My DS has such a busy life that we simply do not have time for extra tutoring.
With regards to what HG said about pre-screening, I now remember that HM who interviewed DS told us that he would recommend some boys for Election after the interview , may be this is exactly what it was and he won't be invited for Election after all.. I am sure we'll find out in due course. I would be very curious to see the Election papers though

Piano. Not sure how that pre-testing would work. No need to commit to Election until three months before in Feb of the same year of entrance anyway. Not 100% sure, but I think constitutionally, you do not even need to be interviewed by anyone and you can simply put your name down before the Feb deadline for Election. More commonly, boy has interview with a HM for a conditional offer, HM may or may not suggest Election. Meeting with Head follows some months later along with parents in his study. At that meeting again, he may or may not suggest Election. These are just suggestions which the boy can follow or reject. I think any kind of barrier to Election may be against founder's intent and even violates WC constitution.
Do seek a meeting with Ian Fraser. He is likely to also say that tutoring is wasting your DS's valuable free time to think. I think you will find such a meeting sobering and him very helpful. No question that knowledge needed for Election is at worst CE. Any suggestion that it is harder or GCSE or higher is just plainly wrong. If you think about it, some of the questions that require the most effort to answer come from very young children.
As for harder or easier, it is like saying that playing the cello is harder than playing the piano or learning arabic; very different both easy and both hard. Similarly, collegemen are cleverer than commoners is like saying pianists are better musicians than cellists. Yet, prep school habitually make that kind of remarks, including those renowned for being feeder schools who boast about their track record of College entries, which proves only one thing - they are easily fooled by basic survivor's bias or worse in the implied assumption about their customersparents.