Double science v. triple. Has DS blown it?

[Erebus]

I will be absolutely honest and say that, at parents eve tonight, the bomb shell was that DS1 is being considered for 'top set double science' not triple science- though which 'set' is rather neither here nor there!

I am rather 'taken aback' that he's not in the top 3rd of his 270 strong-year group (Y9), tbh! I acknowledge that his school is the county's top performing comp, academically so, yes, the competition may be a bit stiffer than completely 'average', but! In Dec his level was 6.2 or 6 low as they call it, and it was the only report he's every gotten a '2' for effort ('usually tries his best, but not always'). Always had a '1' for everything to date.

His 'in class' work has let him down, he got a 4.8 for his last experiment (she only looked at the last 2 or 3 marks, but of course will have an overall overview of DS, won't she?), and when asked why tonight, he said that the 2 other boys he works with were mucking around and they got no experimental data to work with... but he got 76% for the exam they did last week in class (certainly top quarter of the 3rd group in science, there being 2 A groups, 1 B group, his, all 30 DC apiece). Do not misunderstand me- I know DS wouldn't the beacon of diligence trying to pull it all together in class!- but I do sort of think they really haven't given their more 'OK, enough coasting, time to knuckle down boys children' time to show that they now 'get it', and that playtime, as such, is over. I think he had his first real shock tonight, actually. The level 2 'for effort' didn't do it (but his achievement mark was well in the upper half of the school's expected level).

The teacher said 'it's better he gets As or A* in double science than does less well in 3', which is undeniable. BUT DS is capable! My 'complaint' about the school would be they let the kids coast in Y8, no homework, no pressure; then 'wham!' Y9. MUCH more homework, much more focus. I readily concede we are half way through Y9 but I sort of feel DS only got his first yellow card, in Jan, with his report for science, but has just been told, 7 weeks later (today), he has 2 weeks to change their minds for double v. triple science. That's 2 lessons (though the teacher says she will rearrange the prac. groups). He was almost in tears (the teacher didn't see) as we left her as he knows that he needs triple science to be allowed to do science A level at Peter Symonds in Winchester (High performing 6FC). Until tonight he was harbouring a dream of 'maybe science or Engineering at uni'- but, well, he's blown that, hasn't he? A DC who is only allowed to do double science at a school that offers triple isn't 'Science At Uni' material, is he?

Sorry, really, for the ramble but I really, genuinely thought that DS's 'science' future was 'on course'; that is B grade English/humanity performance and possibly even C grade MFL (yet, oddly, A at Maths?!) was counterbalanced by 'solid science'. But it would appear not.

I don't really know what I want you lot to say. I don't know what I'm 'asking'. I just feel, well a bit pole-axed by tonight's revelation, I guess. And I know they aren't really likely to change their minds.

As there are some science teachers on this thread, please can I ask you some advice....

DS is Yr8 and currently a 6a has a genuine love of science, understands it and is good at it but has dyslexia and is terrible at maths - currently 5c (gets symbols muddled, takes away upside down etc). He will probably qualify for a scribe. I think that any maths and he encounters as part of physics could be a real problem for him. If he were to do the triple option then the physics would be separated and leave him with the chance of doing really well with the chemistry and biology whereas if he were to do the double then the maths issues with physics would be more likely to affect his overall grades. Is this thinking right? Have you encountered similar students?

Sorry to hijack.

Niceweather you are correct in thinking that he would get separate grades if he did the three sciences, and a combined grades if he did the double.

I think you will need to ask his teachers. Maybe a sensible option for him would be just to sit Bio and Chem, and not attempt Physics?
Depends if the school thinks that would be a possibility.

Endo, can he do that or is the core aspect of science still compulsory for all? (Hard to tell with all the changes coming up!!!!!)

My advice would also be to talk to the school too. you are essentially correct in what you say and they will advise you on the best course for his needs.

It would also be possible for him to sit foundation in physics and higher in the others. ot sure if this is appropriate for him but worth throwing this in for your information.

Thanks,

I do think that the core aspect is compulsory. I cannot see him being able to get out of physics entirely. It will only be the maths part that gives him difficulty and he should be fine on the rest of it. How much of it is maths?

It's still some way off but for example, perhaps he has a chance of going for As with the chemistry and biology and then Cs with physics (and maths). This would then be a better option than going for the double and having the high marks in chemistry and biology averaged out with a low physics and giving him say Bs. So, 2 As and a C or an ABC would be better than 2 Bs (I guess).

Will obviously wait see what his teachers say. He seems to think he knows more than anyone else in the class but he is liable to misread questions and make silly mistakes like putting the answer as X instead of A, B or C which is what was asked for. He will be at a disadvantage if they are giving out marks for correct spelling which I believe they will be doing.

OP, hope you are reassured about doing the double - I would be. If he goes for the double, it will free up another choice for him - something he might really like and do really well in. Good luck.

There is quite a lot of Maths in the Chemistry part of the triple award too Niceweather

niceweather my DD finds maths a struggle, but she is doing very well at triple science so far.

niceweather - the new 5% of marks for spelling, punctuation and grammar are only for the humanities subjects - geog, hist, RS and English Lit (as well of course for Eng lit, which there has always been a consideration).

Combined gets you two GCSEs one for core and one for additional.

Sixth form want AB min to do A'level and clearly would prefer AA and want you to read the triple text book over the summer to learn the bits you didn't do.

I think it's fairly easy to work out as they use the same unit numbering system.

I have been wondering about this.

Am I missing something but surely a DC who's 'into science' is unlikely to be as good or keen on Biology, Physics and Chem equally? So if they take, say the triple options but they're a bit weaker on say Biology, they might get A's for the Phys and Chem, but a C for the Bio which could well be of no consequence for the DC who wants to do Phys or Chem A level (and presumably has enough other GCSEs), but if they're doing dual or double or whatever it's called, they have to come up trumps in all 3 sciences, albeit to a 1/3 less high level overall. Being a lot less good at say Bio could drag their overall mark down disproportionately.

Am I getting that right?

I have a mate whose DSs are in a selective private school, and she told me that that was one of the reasons the school didn't usually offer 'dual/double' as they found that, being a boys school, apparently, the boys usually did far better in Phys and Chem but fewer did well or were particularly interested in Bio so a lot didn't do Bio at all. Wonder if they were iGCSEs? But I doubt dual or double science is available as iGCSE/s? Oh, and they saw double as being the science kids did who needed to show that 'all rounder' thing like where the 'scientist' does no more than one or two humanities to show they're not an 'uber-geek' but have some all-rounder traits- but won't be doing science A levels. Of course, that's the feeling out of one non-state school so of course it probably isn't universally held.

niceweather- sadly the double science takers just take one fewer GCSEs that the triple. The Big Issue is that they allocate the same amount of time for both double and triple science.

Interesting point kayspace - exactly my thoughts re my DS being brought down by physics if he takes the double.

That's a shame Erebus. At our school, it would free up another option.

My friend's son goes to a grammar and they started off with the three separate subjects.

Do they have 3 GCSE's worth of time, or 2?

IME, it is unusual for a student to score very differently in the three different Science subjects. We are looking at this very closely at the moment, because our triple students could do either Core, Additional and Further Additional, or Biology, Chemistry, Physics. Both routes cover exactly the same units, but obviously the way the exams are structured is different. The advantage of taking the first route would be to reduce the number of exams taken at the end of year 11 under the new so-called linear route (which is not linear at all, but modular only with all the modules at the end...), as Core Science could be done at the end of year 10. We will only do it if we can be sure that the students are not scoring very differently in the three disciplines though. So far, our assessment suggests that they don't.

But in OPs school, they only let the "kids expected A for everything" take the triple science, so inevitably their scored for all 3 will be similar, (As and As)
whereas if it was treated as the 3 separate subjects, you'd be more likely to get some A*s in Biology for the less mathematically inclined, who might have failed completely at Physics.

Again, I would say it's really unusual, IME, for someone to get an A* in one Science and fail completely in another. If you do the three separate Sciences, you do an extra GCSE compared with Core and Additional. Some schools give it extra time, at the expense of other subjects. Some give it the same time as Core and Additional, which means a pace that those who are not the most able will struggle with. There is no opportunity to study just two of the Science subjects at GCSE. Or at least, it does not meet the KS4 programme of study, and would rule you out of EBacc I believe.

Perhaps it's not a "fair test" (sorry) if you are only looking at the achievements of the brightest science kids who are in the top group. They are the only ones who get to the three separately. I did Biology O Level but had absolutely no aptitude for Chemistry or Physics.

Would the other students' different test results across the three subjects reveal a difference or are they all averaged?

At O level, I got a B in Physics, a B in Bio- and an unclassified in the Chem I had to take as a result of taking Phys and Bio!

I guess the problem is that this school are happy to accept quite a gulf between the triple DC and double, i.e. the gap between 3 A-A and 2 A-A (and downwards), ie a complete, high grade GCSE. The system doesn't allow for the good Physicist, good Chemist or good Biologist.

No one gets a 'pure' science GCSE at B or C.

Bear in mind they need a B in that single science GCSE subject in order to be able to study an A level in that subject. But if they are deemed 'B' grade material, they aren't allowed to even study the curriculum.

I wish our school did give triple more time than double but they don't.

Given all the above, I still think DS would be better off taking all 3 and hopefully getting the necessary B and, more importantly, having studied the material of a single science GCSE than getting an A in double (bearing also in mind, only the Additional Science GCSE grade 'counts' towards A level entry, 'Science A' as the end-of-year-10 GCSE is called, doesn't) so a DC needs to be keen and motivated in all of the sciences in order to get this Additional GCSE- where we enter the contentious territory of: Yes, but Additional is easier than singles, covering a 1/3 less ground therefore any DC ought to be able to pass it which is why double is regarded as being 'the science you take to show you're an all-rounder, not your specialist area'.

Especially more so in a school that offers triple.

Please come back and update in 3 yrs :).

What are you going to do if the school reluctantly says your DS can do triple science (thereby giving up attainable As in double science) and it turns out that your DS is struggling to acheive Bs in triple? Bearing in mind that he will have the same time to study for both sets of qualifications. Will the school be expected to give him extra 1-2-1 revision classes so he can acheive Bs to get into PS because that's what his heart is set on? You'll need to think about how much responsibility you'll take for this and not place all of it onto the school, if they have already advised you that it would be better for him to do double science.

As I've said before, it comes down to maturity and attitude. Sometimes this can be demonstrated just by listening to the teacher's opinion (who knows how your DS behaves in class and you don't) and opting for certain As in double instead of being determined to go against the teacher's advice and going for Bs in triple.

I still think that two As is better than 3 Bs. To have been put into triple at that school will have meant the teacher thought he was capable of As. To get Bs will show that your DS failed to achieve what was expected of him. IMO that looks worse than 2 As in double.

I am interested in the number of people who've posted who appear to think anything less than an A isn't worth the paper it's printed on. The 6FMs are happy with a B, but they seem to stand alone in this!

Then we all throw our hands up in the air at Nasty Mr Gove who says all this A,A,A business is a farce and wants to downgrade expectations... I am no Gove fan, but!

Anyway, I will hopefully be 'the wiser' after our Friday meeting.

And Horrible- yes, it would be very interesting to come back on just about any educational issue on MN and update in 3 years, wouldn't it? How we wish we had a crystal ball, but, at the time we're making decisions, we only have what we know here and now to go on, don't we?

Re 6th form advice mismatch with MN:
There is a huge disconnect between RL & MN, that's for sure.

Do you think your DS will be motivated to do his very best at triple? That would be the clincher for me, how much work would * I * have to do to keep him motivated.

Erebus, it's because statistically, we know that anything less than a BB or BBB at GCSE and a student will really, really struggle at A level in the sciences.

even students with B grades can struggle and it can be hit and miss as to their chances of success.

Students with A and A* grades are very much better prepared for the transition, and it's statisically far more important than what course they followed.

We all allow students onto an A level course with B grades but we watch them closely and support them because they are likely to be the ones who have to drop the course at the end of the first year.

It still saddens me how cynically you view the advise of the experts here and how ready you are to find an alterior motive for what is genuinely meant well.

I'm doing some research into tutoring right now - forearmed/forewarned etc. Hope that hels meet your expectations of my parental involvement, chic

Shipwrecked- B grades in what? Individual science or part of double science?

You say 'they'll struggle'- but surely a DC who has a B in double science (which will be a grade made up of a third physics, a third chem and a third biology taken to a certain level) is going to struggle more when faced with an A level than one who has a B in say Physics GCSE (which will be a grade made up purely of knowledge of physics alone taken to a higher level than the double 'bit') who wants to take A level Physics? Having studied a third more physics to get there?

I think the thing that isn't maybe isn't being taken into account is that, with the best will in the world (and which has already been pointed out!) , I cannot be entirely convinced the school is only considering each individual DC's needs and desires and doesn't maybe have a 'healthy eye' on what's good for them as a school! My reasons for wondering about this is the fact the triple DC overwhelmingly get A-A. This either means the school is absolutely amazing at teaching individual science, or they only allow DC who will get an A-A to take the subject! It wouldn't be the first time a school 'played it safe' in advising a DC to take GCSEs that they are most likely to pass with a high grade and discouraging them taking a higher graded exam. I mean, one wonders how many foundation level DC in say English or Maths who got the top mark available, a C, might have achieved a B were they entered for the higher level? You see that a fair bit here on MN. Swathes of comps the length and breadth of the country indulged in 'easier' equivalences in order to secure places on accursed League Tables, didn't they?

I do not blame the school, if, indeed they are 'playing a game'- the way we measure education is set up to encourage that- but on Friday, I want to ask how far below 'bottom group GCSE' DS is to explain why he's being considered for 'top group' double. After Friday I believe we will know how borderline DS1 is in being 'allowed' into classes in which 95% average of the DC get an A-A in each science, in triple, as there's nothing (5%?) in between that (ie practically no Bs or C grades) and the A-A (and below, of course) they get at double.

I give up trying to explain....

I wish your son well.

But I'm finished with this!

ship if you believe that schools are only interested in the best outcomes for their pupils and don't have half an eye on their league table positions then you are at best naive...

Otherwise why do some schools offer only double? Why do some schools start GCSE in year 8 and endlessly sit and resit modules? Why do some schools manage out pupils who have been there since year 7 and get a nice fresh crop of sixth formers?

This all happens, you know.

And yes, some science departments will only allow its dead certs to take the triple. Decision made for them. No discussion.

you know I'm a science teacher, don't you???

and have been in a large number of schools for a very very long time

and yes, there are some parents who will believe just about anything rather than accept advise they don't like. No discussion

anyway. better things to do than try to explain this all again...

as said, best of luck.