Double science v. triple. Has DS blown it?

[Erebus]

I will be absolutely honest and say that, at parents eve tonight, the bomb shell was that DS1 is being considered for 'top set double science' not triple science- though which 'set' is rather neither here nor there!

I am rather 'taken aback' that he's not in the top 3rd of his 270 strong-year group (Y9), tbh! I acknowledge that his school is the county's top performing comp, academically so, yes, the competition may be a bit stiffer than completely 'average', but! In Dec his level was 6.2 or 6 low as they call it, and it was the only report he's every gotten a '2' for effort ('usually tries his best, but not always'). Always had a '1' for everything to date.

His 'in class' work has let him down, he got a 4.8 for his last experiment (she only looked at the last 2 or 3 marks, but of course will have an overall overview of DS, won't she?), and when asked why tonight, he said that the 2 other boys he works with were mucking around and they got no experimental data to work with... but he got 76% for the exam they did last week in class (certainly top quarter of the 3rd group in science, there being 2 A groups, 1 B group, his, all 30 DC apiece). Do not misunderstand me- I know DS wouldn't the beacon of diligence trying to pull it all together in class!- but I do sort of think they really haven't given their more 'OK, enough coasting, time to knuckle down boys children' time to show that they now 'get it', and that playtime, as such, is over. I think he had his first real shock tonight, actually. The level 2 'for effort' didn't do it (but his achievement mark was well in the upper half of the school's expected level).

The teacher said 'it's better he gets As or A* in double science than does less well in 3', which is undeniable. BUT DS is capable! My 'complaint' about the school would be they let the kids coast in Y8, no homework, no pressure; then 'wham!' Y9. MUCH more homework, much more focus. I readily concede we are half way through Y9 but I sort of feel DS only got his first yellow card, in Jan, with his report for science, but has just been told, 7 weeks later (today), he has 2 weeks to change their minds for double v. triple science. That's 2 lessons (though the teacher says she will rearrange the prac. groups). He was almost in tears (the teacher didn't see) as we left her as he knows that he needs triple science to be allowed to do science A level at Peter Symonds in Winchester (High performing 6FC). Until tonight he was harbouring a dream of 'maybe science or Engineering at uni'- but, well, he's blown that, hasn't he? A DC who is only allowed to do double science at a school that offers triple isn't 'Science At Uni' material, is he?

Sorry, really, for the ramble but I really, genuinely thought that DS's 'science' future was 'on course'; that is B grade English/humanity performance and possibly even C grade MFL (yet, oddly, A at Maths?!) was counterbalanced by 'solid science'. But it would appear not.

I don't really know what I want you lot to say. I don't know what I'm 'asking'. I just feel, well a bit pole-axed by tonight's revelation, I guess. And I know they aren't really likely to change their minds.

Interestingly was debate on double v triple science on wright stuff c5 today and on panel was ladies from tommorow world and ex secondry teacher who both agreed triple was better.

I dont see why they couldent be taught and taken as seperate subjects as I detested physics but dident mind chemistry and biology why not let pupils decide when they do options.

reason for it they said was school xmas league tables

Most private schools and all scottish seniors taught all 3 so rather puts welsh/english and ni kidsat disadvantage when comes to applying for science at uni.

DD1 has just rang to say she got A* in her core science paper. She still has some course work stuff to complete and so doesn't know her final grade.

She's over the moon, she missed A* in her mock by about 2 marks. this time she got 99% in one paper.

So much for the HOD saying she wouldn't cope with triple.

I dont see why they couldent be taught and taken as seperate subjects as I detested physics but dident mind chemistry and biology why not let pupils decide when they do options.

It's a historical thing. back in the late eighties, when the conservatives brought in the National Curriculum, one of the things they wanted to do was prevent students specialising too early and to have a decent grounding in all sciences. so they specified that all sciences needed to be studied.

It will be interesting to see if that ideal remains in the future, but that's why it's this way at present.

DH likes to brag how he got top marks in all GCSEs & A-levels (math & physics & DT). He conveniently omits the Chem A-level he dropped, devil's work indeed.

Still looking to see if anyone answered my Q.

I know a lad who has just been offered BBB for an engineering degree course. The original offer was higher but they held an assessment/aptitude day and his offer came down after doing well on that. He is doing maths, physics & a non-science subject.

Just remember science teacher at DS school saying she had 35 in her top 2 sets combined, I had the impression they were only children doing the triple. So that would be 22% of the cohort.

this is bit out of date, but reported 16% of pupils completing triple in 2010.

More recent figures but I honestly can't make sense of them.

Thanks for the Wright Stuff debate link.

The more I think about it the more cross I am, tbh.

I completely understand why people tell me about BTecs and ONDs etc, of alternative routes into science- but I am increasingly thinking that DS is being short-changed, imho, based on having science O levels and a B.Sc myself, and DH having 3 science degrees. We 'get' science. We see DS as being clever in the big picture. As already mentioned he scored 5s in all his KS2 SATS; his progress across all of his subjects has been good; he should be on course for a 6H by the end of Y9 in science, bearing in mind the high-achieving school's own reckoning states 'a few students may be working at level 7 at the end of Y9' out of 270 of them!

I am increasingly believing they are, like another poster here has said, correctly expecting DS will get the A or A* in double that will boost their league table position rather than 'punt' on AAB or ABB at triple which muddies those waters.

He needs to be doing triple.

For the recors, I have a second DS who is squarely in double science territory. He will make a great apprentice and tradesman and will do well and be happy with that. So I am not delusional and thinking 'my pfb is G&T and why won't the horrid school see that?'

The Wright Stuff thinks 30% of pupils do triple science, for the record.

At ds's school (large but good state comp) the top 20% do triple science.

Meant to add, OP, I am not sure how the 6H your ds's school gives translates into NC levels?
At ds's school (as I mentioned above) the top 20% do triple science. The current 20% are the top science set. I believe (although I have not seen every pupils' mark) that this group are on level 7C / 7bB / 7A according to what the department head for science told us at parent's evening last month. Ds had a level 7B for Science on his Christmas progress report and according to said head of department (who is also ds's science teacher) that is just below the average for the top set. His end of year target is an 8C.
If 6H equates to a 6A then this strikes me as a little low? And perhaps the school do have your son's best interests at heart rather than their league tables? Forgive me if the levels are completely different though and are not comparable.

Sorry, also meant to add, DS is currently in Y9 and the levels I am referring to are for the top set in Y9 at his school.

Gah, not being very clear and coherent tonight...

6H is a NC level, numbernine- 6 high, or 6.8 (which is what they also refer to it as). An exception few, apparently, get a 7 in science at the end of Y9, and they are clever DC, several having gained Maths A levels at 14!

The school is the top academically performing comp in Hampshire, They get 92% DC 5 GCSEs inc Maths and English; 58% Eng Bacc (as is!). I am not trying to boast, believe me (as we are falling foul of 'success at all costs', aren't we?!), merely contextualising their expected levels.

88 DC took and 86 passed triple science last year, out of 270, which is about a third.

Mmm, seems a bit low compared to ds's school, unless they (ds's school) are fibbing about ds's and his classmates results?
And ds's school is an average comp. (66% A*-C incl English and Maths were last year's results)

But talk to them. They should give him a chance to prove himself.

One of ds's friends is in set 3 for Science and is currently working at a 6C. (I am friends with her parents, they told me her level as they are having the same battle with the school you are) She has been told she cannot do triple science unless her parents are willing to pay for the Further Additional. They don't want to pay (although they will if they have to) but they want their dd to have a chance to prove herself.
That said, ds's school determine the top 20% based on the results at the end of Y10. So just because ds is currently in the top 20% and working at 7B does not guarantee he will still be in the top 20% at the end of Y10. And likewise, his friend who currently would not be put in for triple may well by the end of Y10 have worked her way into the top 20%)
Seems a fairer way of doing it?

I agree with you that it is unfair your ds is 'written off' for triple science so early.

Talk to them, fight his corner (nicely). Good luck

I am surprised if you are saying that an exception few get a level 7 at the end of year 9.

That would not fit with my understanding of a high performing comp tbh.

Have you spoken with the school yet about your concerns? What have they said?

Sorry, the 'nicely' came out all wrong. I don't mean you won't be nice, I was meaning it in the context of your earlier post about not wanting to be one of those parents who gets the school's back up.

Am really not very coherent tonight, it has been a long week...

Erebus - One of my DS did dual award (was very upset at the time he was told, like your DS), because his Physics in Yr 8 was under performing). He then went on to study Physics, Chemistry, Geology and Economics at A level and then Environmental Geosciences at Durham. Thirteen year old boys often need a kick and there is no way your son should feel he needs to rethink engineering at this stage unless his maths is also below expectations. I would speak to the HOD if you feel he is serious enough to do the work at this stage. If he isn't mature enough then he can still opt to do the work at A level, despite the fact that some of the GCSE triple syllabus won't have been covered before sixth form - that was not unusual in pupils opting for science A's in my Dc's leading independent school. If you are looking at transferring for sixth form then I would also speak to the admissions tutor at that college. Oh and don't let him feel the world has ended, it hasn't, and stuff like this will happen again and again. A close friend of mine who missed his Cambridge medicine place because he shocked everyone by bombing one of his science A levels then went elsewhere to read biology and is now a world-renowned Professor of Applied Biology. Stuff happens.

shipwrecked, that is what I was (badly) trying to say. Ds is currently 7B, target 8C. This is top set Y9 Science at an average comp.
And ds's current 7B is "slightly below average for the top set" according to Science HOD (ds's teacher)

Erebus, talk to the school about your concerns.

Yeah, we typically have two set one classes who all work at level 7C and up.

We are a high performing comp but not the highest on the area.

And wise words from BCGB, his future in engineering at uni has in no way ended. He just needs to work a bit harder, with the support of the school, or find an alternative route to uni.

There is more than one way to skin a cat as my old neighbour would say
I spoke to our local highest performing 6th form college about the entry requirements for Science A level and the need for triple science. They said it would be preferable but A*/A at double is perfectly good enough providing the other GCSE's are of a good standard too. So by doing double the step up to A level may be a bit bigger for your ds but remember he will have grown / matured / developed in the interim too and may well be in a better place to learn. Learning is not linear but goes in fits and starts, your ds may well make great strides in the next few years whereas my ds may slump. And they will then eventually meet at uni studying engineering each having got there their own way!

I am increasingly believing they are, like another poster here has said, correctly expecting DS will get the A or A in double that will boost their league table position rather than 'punt' on AAB or ABB at triple which muddies those waters.*

The thing is Erebus that you moved into catchment because you valued its position on the league table. And haven't other people said that A/A in double has a higher value to your DS* than AAB or ABB in triple?

You would need to consider whether achieving AAB or ABB in triple would instead demonstrate that your DS wasn't capable of getting AAA. And that in having been put forward for triple by his school (instead of double) and by implication being a dead cert to get AAA to protect their position on the league table, would mean he'd actually failed to be one of the highest science achievers as expected.

Have you spoken to the school yet? As the feedback I gave you was that you should speak to them and that doing triple isn't just about capability but attitude too.

The DC put forward for triple haven't been distracted by lab partners or ignored a 2 for effort in their report. What has set them apart and shown the teachers that they're able to do triple is their attitude in Y9. Not one single DC who has a problem with 'in class' attitude in Y9 has managed triple science. They've all dropped back to double in Y11 as they've not been able to sustain the level of real commitment required to do well in triple. It's not simply about academic ability.

This is the view of the department whose eye is not on the league tables but genuinely on wanting the DC to get the best results they can get realistically get. But they will be happy to speak to you about it if you contact them and would even be prepared to change their mind if you genuinely feel your DS is capable of improving his attitude and commitment for the next 2 years.

Because at the moment he has been given 2 weeks to improve and he's already thinking it's all over. That doesn't evidence a DC who's prepared to really really put in the extra work to do better in triple than he would have in double.

Thanks, all.

Thing is, there's no 'fall back' to dual/double in Y11 available to DS. As of this Sept, for him it's double or triple. The twain don't meet. There is no 'Further Additional' to make up the 3 as the 3 are Physics GCSE, Chem GCSE, and Bio GCSE (dual is 'Science A' and 'Additional'.) He got one single '2' for effort in the last 2 1/2 years at school among a sea of 1s. Yes, he is currently a bit immature for his age, but he's well-behaved and doing well: the other teachers at parents eve all spoke of being 'on target', even 'a joy to teach', 'quiet but thoughtful'- not a wild larrikin! Far from it. And they all spoke of him being on target for good GCSE results. But he is the smallest boy in Y9 with slightly fragile friendship groups. He is absolutely not going to discipline his science Experiment Group in lesson! Which appearsto be why he'll be placed in 'the top set of double'....

Behind - I guess what our schools call each level is a red herring, isn't it? I did say that this school expect 'the majority of Y9 pupils to be working between 5.8 and 6.8 by the end of the year with some exceptional pupils at 7'. These 'exceptional' pupils are doing statistics GCSEs in Y10, some even have Maths A levels. These are clever DC (which is a thing that's catching DS1 out a bit, I believe! The 'competition'). I am not, as I said earlier, boasting, I am stating the facts. The externally marked national exams put 92% of DC as having passed 5 GCSEs in Eng & Maths. It is the top performing comp in the county, academically. So their '6's and '7's at the end of Y9 are possibly not to be seen as 'a bit low', really, are they?!

I said earlier that there's be the thought that his defeatism (there goes Engineering as my future!) might be seen as demonstrating insufficient mettle for 3 science GCSEs- but, really, we are talking a 13 year old who lacks confidence. Two weeks, in 2 1/2 years 'to show commitment' is nothing (esp as he has a supply teacher today for science...). No, I am increasingly thinking that of course DS's intellect and ability puts him in the 'top' 30% of people, capable of triple science (god knows, I did 3 GCEs in science and I'm not clever!)- it's just that school wants his 'certain' double science triumph on the league tables, not risk his triple 'nearlies'.

A final point, as already stated: Yes, of course double science DC can do A level BUT it is not reasonable to compare the ability of a double science success who had no triple option at their school with one who failed to get on the triple program; and yes, as already stated, we know many DC who did double and had to drop their science A level after AS as the knowledge gap was too big to bridge.

We have emailed the school requesting a meeting and wait a response!

Erebus, they strike me as low purely when compared to other state schools who expect top set science pupils to start year 9 on 7C as mentioned both by myself and shipwrecked.
I am not for a minute doubting these are not intelligent kids, but low level 6 with only a few expected to reach level 7 by the end of Y9 strikes me as low for top set. Especially for a school with a 92% GCSE A* - C rate. Hence my question regarding the NC levels as I was not sure you were talking about a different marking / levelling system.
I am merely stating that something does not appear to add up. What that is I don't know.
I am also not for one minute suggesting that you are boasting, far from it.

I think the Fischer Family Trust data requires a level 7 to be on course for A/A*, doesn't it? And a level 6 predicts a grade B.

I don't doubt everything you say about your school's GCSE results, OP, but their quantity of level 7s in year 9 does seem low (if you have the correct information), compared to what I know of some of our local schools, and previous posters have said. Is there any chance that you've misunderstood some of the data (KS3 not KS4)?

I agree with you, though, that doing double science at a school that offers triple looks worse on paper for sixth form entry, so I don't suppose there's much help in many of us telling you anecdotally how some of our local schools only offer double to everyone and they still get fab science results at A level and top Uni offers?

Q:"The thing is Erebus that you moved into catchment because you valued its position on the league table"- no, after visiting 5 possible comps when DS1 was in Y4 (!), we moved into this catchment because of DS 2. We have had every indication to date, up to the science GCSE option bombshell, that DS1 would be 'OK' in any reasonable school. He would be in the upper sets, where the better disciplined and more able tend to reside; schools where there is a recognition at about 12 or 13 that arsing about in class is only actually damaging your own future. That those people teaching at the front of the class are your passport to a choice-filled future. I recall clearly that 'awakening' in my own GS in Y9 for the less perceptive, earlier for the more switched-on. Note DS1 doesn't 'arse around'.

DS2 is less able. Quiet, well behaved, but a C grade student- so we picked a school that appeared to do well by all its ability groups, where the 'able but badly behaved' are made to knuckle down via a process of very close parental involvement, monitoring, contact, discipline etc etc. The lower sets contain lesser ability DC, not the 'clever but ill-disciplined', determined to ruin it for everyone types; there are no chairs whistling around the classroom, no 'couldn't hear the teacher above the din' classes.

this school's expected levels at the end of Y9

I can only go on this- and that 92% of DC get 5 GCSEs inc Maths and English, 58% Eng Bacc.