Double science v. triple. Has DS blown it?

[Erebus]

I will be absolutely honest and say that, at parents eve tonight, the bomb shell was that DS1 is being considered for 'top set double science' not triple science- though which 'set' is rather neither here nor there!

I am rather 'taken aback' that he's not in the top 3rd of his 270 strong-year group (Y9), tbh! I acknowledge that his school is the county's top performing comp, academically so, yes, the competition may be a bit stiffer than completely 'average', but! In Dec his level was 6.2 or 6 low as they call it, and it was the only report he's every gotten a '2' for effort ('usually tries his best, but not always'). Always had a '1' for everything to date.

His 'in class' work has let him down, he got a 4.8 for his last experiment (she only looked at the last 2 or 3 marks, but of course will have an overall overview of DS, won't she?), and when asked why tonight, he said that the 2 other boys he works with were mucking around and they got no experimental data to work with... but he got 76% for the exam they did last week in class (certainly top quarter of the 3rd group in science, there being 2 A groups, 1 B group, his, all 30 DC apiece). Do not misunderstand me- I know DS wouldn't the beacon of diligence trying to pull it all together in class!- but I do sort of think they really haven't given their more 'OK, enough coasting, time to knuckle down boys children' time to show that they now 'get it', and that playtime, as such, is over. I think he had his first real shock tonight, actually. The level 2 'for effort' didn't do it (but his achievement mark was well in the upper half of the school's expected level).

The teacher said 'it's better he gets As or A* in double science than does less well in 3', which is undeniable. BUT DS is capable! My 'complaint' about the school would be they let the kids coast in Y8, no homework, no pressure; then 'wham!' Y9. MUCH more homework, much more focus. I readily concede we are half way through Y9 but I sort of feel DS only got his first yellow card, in Jan, with his report for science, but has just been told, 7 weeks later (today), he has 2 weeks to change their minds for double v. triple science. That's 2 lessons (though the teacher says she will rearrange the prac. groups). He was almost in tears (the teacher didn't see) as we left her as he knows that he needs triple science to be allowed to do science A level at Peter Symonds in Winchester (High performing 6FC). Until tonight he was harbouring a dream of 'maybe science or Engineering at uni'- but, well, he's blown that, hasn't he? A DC who is only allowed to do double science at a school that offers triple isn't 'Science At Uni' material, is he?

Sorry, really, for the ramble but I really, genuinely thought that DS's 'science' future was 'on course'; that is B grade English/humanity performance and possibly even C grade MFL (yet, oddly, A at Maths?!) was counterbalanced by 'solid science'. But it would appear not.

I don't really know what I want you lot to say. I don't know what I'm 'asking'. I just feel, well a bit pole-axed by tonight's revelation, I guess. And I know they aren't really likely to change their minds.

92% of pupils get GCSEs including maths and English. Do they pass them or do they get between A* - C grade which is what league tables go on?

Also, that doc you linked to is a bit wooly and vague to my mind and does not give you much to go on.
However, a massive red flag to me is that level 8 is no longer available in Y9. Why?? Surely if a top set science pupil is working at a 7, and in line for statistics in Y10 as well as doing maths A levels at age 14 they should be able to sit the test for subsequently reach level 8 in science? Ds's target for the end of Y9 is 8C (8 low in your school's language) and some of his much brighter class mates are on target for 8B and above by the end of the year 9.

In 2012,
92% of DC who took GCSE Physics got A-A*
99% in Chem got A-A*
94% in Bio got A-A*

I guess they don't want DS1 to sully those results with a B, do they?!

Officially level 8 only exists in maths, doesn't it? But I know in my school they are regularly given out (where deserved obviously) in English and science too (eg the whole top set - a quarter of the cohort - will be level 8 in English by the mid/end of yr 9).

I think the school have made quite a deal about how science testing has been 'reorganised' for the cohort currently in Y9, which might be why they aren't measuring level 8? We were warned in Y8, in a letter accompanying a report, that one's DC may not show the same linear progress in 'this' report in science as previously because the government had introduced new testing criteria, and the school were measuring the DC against the 'new' requirements' (stuff about analytical ability superseding 'retention/recall'?).

Books- that might explain it! The level 8 thing.

I think that you have to get it clear in your mind what you're asking for out of a meeting - no point in us telling you how many level 7 and 8 scientists we know in yr 9.

You need honesty from the school as to what actual GCSE grades they see him attaining were he to take triple as opposed to double and how close he is to being one of those allowed to take triple - ie if they've only 60 spaces, how far off that cut-off point is he?

Fair point about the level 8 thing in Science.

As for the rest. I simply don't know. I don't know if the school genuinly have your ds's best interests at heart or if they are protecting their league table.

I personally feel that if your ds is on a 6 low, and that 6 low is comparable to NC levels then in ds's school (which is lower performing than yours) he would not be in the top 20% on course for triple science. This leads me to think it is a level / attainment / effort related decision rather than a high performing school wanting to protect their good results.

But no one will be any the wiser until you speak to the school. And if your ds has to take a different route, then that is bad luck but not the end of the world. There are more 6th form colleges rather than the one you have your heart set on. It does not mean his dream of science / engineering has finished.

Ok I don't understand entirely the whole new GCSE structure thing but I just wanted to let you know that I managed to do A-levels in chem and biology with dual science (and on to medicine after that). My friends who did engineering did ok in GCSE and A-levels - what is more important in engineering is maths (and further maths, or its equivalent). It can be done, maybe not at the college where he had his heart set on, but if engineering is really what he wants to do, other colleges are accepted.

Books- no, I was a bit surprised at how many times I've had to explain why I am increasingly thinking the school don't want DS1 to do triple because they know he will do very well in double and not risk sullying high results in triple. I did get a bit sidetracked by those who maybe thought either I was being deceived by the schools levels (6-7s) or that the GCSE results weren't actually that good. I didn't want to come right out and say 'Because my DS's school is, for a comp, bloody amazing. Just look at these stellar results!' (though I was kind of backed into stating the actual results!)- as that isn't the point.

What I want out of a meeting is for them to explain to me why they think double is better for DS1 than triple; how they think that will help him towards getting into engineering (bearing in mind, they're the schools with career links in Y8 onwards, who encourage 'direction' in their youngsters!); why science is the only subject he's falling over in; how low marks in Experiments done with other DSs impacts so negatively on his perceived ability, how a 6 medium now may not segue into a 6 high come July, which, by their own criteria, doesn't shout 'slacker'!

A quick aside- He doesn't have his heart set on any particular 6FM (it's his decision, not mine! I cited the one the vast majority of his school's Y11's end up at)- the biggie is how bridgeable is the gap between double science and A level science??

Sorry, thought you (or he) had a specific 6th form in mind. My misunderstanding. (ds and I do have a favourite in mind hence why I had assumed... arf, not coherent again)

Whilst your school's results are very very good, perhaps your ds is one of those who, whilst very able and higher than average, has not quite got what it takes to do triple science.
And perhaps the school is worried that if he was put on triple science some of his other subjects may suffer.
Whether they have that concern for your son or for the league table, only you can judge that as only you know the school and have a feel for it's ethos and values.
I know that at ds's school they would have the best interest of the pupil in mind. And therefore they are always willing to talk to parents and listen to them and the pupil and work together to achieve the best outcome.

I hope you get to the bottom of this and have a good and satisfactory meeting with the school.

Oh, just remembered. It was explained to me that Further Additional Science (the third in the triple) is a half-way house between GCSE and AS level. Not sure if I understood it correctly but I got the feeling that if ds did Further Additional he would then be repeating some of the work at AS level.

Speak to the 6th form in question. Because if your ds is literally the 61st on the list and only 60 can do triple then he should be able to bridge the gap easily. And the 6th form should still accept him especially in light of his great maths!

Well as I said, a couple of our local 'outstanding' comps with good GCSE results - not as good as yours - but still a little above average and with amazing value added, don't offer triple at all - and they still achieve excellent science A level results (my neighbour's son got 4 As at A level in maths and sciences) and excellent uni offers.

And they all spoke of him being on target for good GCSE results. A/A* in double science is a good result.

I know which school you're taking about and your mention of PS up thread will enable anyone else to work out which one it is. This isn't the best way to go about it tbh. I would personally take it offline now before you make more accusations about the school's agenda. You should speak (not email) the teacher and discuss this with her.

I know you feel disappointed for your DS and that the teacher doesn't think he's triple science material. But teachers cannot do much more than keep telling the DC that they are damaging their GCSE potential with their 'in class' attitude. Whether DC in Y9 are all capable of realising that at their age is moot as it's not the school's decision to get DC to choose their options in Y9. Be grateful that the school is confident enough about the DC's ability to get good results over 2 years and doesn't spread it out over 3 like many comps by making them choose their options in Y8.

Level 6L/6H in Y9 is set 2 and not definite triple science material, especially when the DC isn't always trying his hardest in class. DH pulls his hair out at some of those DC (& parents) who think that simply being in the best comp in the county is going to be enough. But saying nothing to the teacher at the parents evening and then making these kinds of comments on the internet isn't on really. You really need to speak to her, without telling them that you think they're just protecting their position on the league table.

Erebus-just wanted to say good look with meeting you sound like fab parent and you considered so many factors in picking schools,your sons academic performance sounds good and your reason for wanting to do triple is logical one based on sons career hopes.

Is the school selective entry academy at year 7? or just normal la comp?

Does it have wide group of kids ie affluent and fsm?

Im in two minds about league tables as as parent its good to know but think sometimes makes schools limit opportunities for kids and in some cases too early.

My eldest is only 7 so i early stages of nc and it worries me how schools think kids will mature like robots and follow linear line so level 3 at means level 5 in year 6 and only some primaries will offer level 6 then thats used to determine what pass rate and set they will be at gsce.

I dident realise at secondary that they outlined the nc levels so clearly as cant remember that being the case when i was in school In the 90s.

I went to 1large comp only one in rural marley town the and the middle to bottom groups were filled with poor displine behaviour problems and that impacted on how I did in some of my gcses.

A large proportion of my year did single award science.

if he doesnt do triple can he do extra gcse as whenever i see gsce results day im amazed how many gcses some kids do as think i sat 8. The lower english groups also lot out on english lit.

The top groups modern languages got to do 2nd language but that was in year 8 and 8 not gcse we just had core

english-worth 2 if in top group only in bottom.
maths
science-max we could do was double

so 5gcses if triple then that gives him 6.

then 4options

I picked geography-wish I hadent would have been better off with art.

history-loved it my best subject.

business studies

french-god had to think for ages just now what 4th one was, teacher was dire predicted me an e wrote me off gout tutor and scraped a c.

My old school only cared about thet very top the middle coasted and the bottoms.

The year after me in wales had to do welsh gcse as well.

My step son very troubled, low acheiver on 2nd school.

hes in year 10 now an his options are

single award science
english
welsh
pe
art
btec hospitality-suppost to be equivilant to 4gcses.
maths-foundation-think higest grade is a d or c.

I imagine some of his choices manipulate the league tables.
He does not even want to go into hospitality so god knows why hes picked that.

I always did think triple in england and wales was quite rare in state sector non selectives at least.

The more I hear about scotlands education system but the more sensible it sounds.

I worry so much about schools as think they make some wrong had this recently as dd passed the phonics test year 1 so wasent eligible for any additional reading help.

I also think its important to note that top set 1 school maybe very diffrerent ability to top set in next town over.

Good luck OP.
I think you need to get to the bottom of whether the school thinks he really is not capable or whether they are being entirely too cautious and protectionist of their precious league table results.

If it's the former, then there you are. If it's the later, then bugger that.

But if you win this argument you really must impress upon your DS that he must knuckle down hugely. This actually might be easier in the triple set, as everyone who isn't bothered about science will be put in double!!!!

Slightly different perspective, my DS2, who sounds a lot like the OPs DS2, was originally sent the non-Ebacc options form (see my previous frantic post) with no language option. I was determined that he would do a language and not the basic skills cert thing they put him down for and arranged a meeting ready to go in with all guns blazing.

Got to the meeting, was told that another child who had been put down for the Ebacc didn't want to do it, they could just swap them around with no timetabling issues, job done, no fight required....

It could be timetabling as much as anything else, ie sets 1 and 2 do triple, sets 3 and 4 double, 5 and 6 Btec, timetables all sorted. Those on the border may wish to move up or down on those boundaries, for example some of those automatically pegged by the school to do triple may be more into the arts and not want the stress, if a few of them request double, that could leave some spaces in the triple? Try not to go on the attack until you're sure you need to...

As someone suggested up thread, consider getting a tutor - if the school agrees to the Triple Science. Don't think you can do it yourself. Unless your ds is very pliable it's a road to giant rows. If I try to "assist" ds with any homework, he roars and bellows like an irate, cornered bison, even though I am bursting to unleash my knowledge of WWII or Othello etc etc on him.

Although it is good to stretch oneself, it is also important not to bite off more than one can chew. Some of ds's friends elected to do a large number of GCSEs: Triple Science, Statistics, twilight subjects - and now one or two are regretting it. Ds says Stats is time-consuming and much harder than he though it would be. We seriously considered asking the school if he could quit as it was upsetting him quite a bit that his classmates were streaking ahead of him, but he is soldiering on - with additional help from the teacher. With hindsight, though, he wouldn't have gone for it.

As a PP said your son's current levels would suggest B/B at double not A* or A. The reason the guidance suggests that pupils working at level 6 should be offered triple science is because they stand a chance of getting CCC. Many will but plenty won't.

In your situation I think I'd opt for the double and get him to pull his finger out to improve his grades to A* or A. Getting CCC or CCD at GCSE really will end his chances of studying sciences at A-level and further. A good or excellent grade at double will give him much wider options.

Also, are you sure he is on course for 6A at the end of year 9? If he was 6c at Christmas and is just 6b now there's a good chance that he could still be 6B at the end of the year even making good progress.

Thanks to everyone for their input. Sorry I didn't get straight back- work is so busy it's almost funny- how come if I work 24 hours a week I've just put in 42 1/2? Discuss. And show your workings.

Sadly, DH didn't get a response from the person the receptionist told him to email to a arrange a meeting, done on Thursday. I know this can be an ishoo at the school- there is a bit of disconnect between the level of access you can get going through the proper, 'phone the school' channel (often an answering machine!) and the letter direct to a teacher where the teacher almost always sends you their direct email address!

So DH and I are going to write a joint letter over the weekend to his teacher (whom we saw at parents eve) and his other teacher who is apparently Head of Science.

We are going to outline why DS wants to do triple, why we believe it'll be useful to him, that we recognise he's got to knuckle down (bearing in mind this 'shock' might be a catalyst!), and expressing our concerns that the gap between double and A level might be unbridgeable, which is what we've been told by quite a few people; then ask them to tell us whether this changes anything, and maybe to detail, should they refuse to reconsider, why they think he shouldn't be doing triple.

Time is more of the essence now as the options need to be in on Friday and his other options are based on his desire to pursue science/engineering, including wanting to do Computer Science (booklet states 'only some DC can do this due to time constraints'- the alternatives being a sort of vocational IT course, which we saw as being aimed at apprentices, or CIDA, certificate in digital applications which seems to be a harder course aimed at the more techy-creative, web page designer DC, ie not DS!).

If they're offering double science and vocational IT to DS- which was an idea I hadn't even entertained til last Tuesday- thinking that DS's to-date performance in school, being in top or second groups of 5 or 6 (where they do set); on-course for an A in maths, A's in English, B or C in MFL, etc actually rates him as Technical College/apprenticeship material- maybe he should ditch electronics in favour of wood-tech.

I am not disrespecting vocational education- as already stated, that's precisely where DS2 is happily heading- it's just that I thought all the indicators to date suggested DS1 was heading for something more academic, maybe even uni, but maybe I am wrong.

You are in danger in being a little dramatic, now, OP. A pair or As or even Bs in science does not consign ds to technical college/apprenticeship/vocational educational, not by a long shot.

There are a range of Universities with a range of entry criteria and not taking triple science is not going to preclude him from going to one of them.

I don't think you really have taken on board the various comments about how double science can easily lead onto science A levels OR the comments upthread (and ClayDavis' recent one) suggesting that his current levels are not massively high (no disrepect, and I hadn't posted this earlier - but all of my ds's top set are level 6c plus in year 7) OR the comments on how maths is the crucial A level (probably together with physics).

Good luck anyway.

I am not entirely sure why you came on here to ask for advice if you had already made you mind up as to the value of double award.

Good luck with the school. but if, as I suspect, they stand by their decision, please do remember that double award doesn't prevent students doing A level sciences..... only students themselves do that.

I don't understand why you are being so black and white about it. It apears that you think triple science = university, double science = vocational courses.
Many of us have told you it is perfectly possible to go on to A levels and university with double science. But you seem to not accep this?
Why are you so set on triple? Higher marks in double science will be just as useful to your ds.
There are not just high achievers and low achievers, there are many many many levels of achievement inbetween, many of whom can go to university.

I fear that if you push for your ds to do triple science, he will struggle and perhaps resent you for the pressure you are putting him under.
Yes, he wants to do it, but is he really capable?
How will he feel at the end of Y11 when results are in and he has mediocre marks across ALL his gcse's because he had to try to do triple science?

If it was my ds I would let him do double and ensure he also gets a very good mark in his English, Maths, MFL and humanity.

Also, you talk of your ds's dream of Science or Engineering at university. Notice the OR. He does not yet know for definite what he wants to do. Not many 13 year olds know for certain what they want to do. Ds and his friends all seem to change their minds every few weeks! Ds has swung from thinking he wants to do dentistry at uni, to human biology, to archeology, to aerodynamics and is now back at dentistry. I am certain it will change many more times in the next few years!
For this reason we are ensuring he has selected a broad range of GCSE's including double humanity.
If he gets to the end of Y10 and has not made the grade for triple science I shall not worry. As long as he comes out with a good set of GCSE's with good results I shall be happy. I am not pinning my hopes on purely Science for him.

Also, someone (it may even have been on MN) told me that with maths and science, no matter how good you are early on in your schooling, there is a natural ceiling that you reach and then you can go no further. That ceiling is higher and more advanced for some, and lower for others. If your ds is not top set triple science material now, how likely is it that his natural ceiling is beyond university level?

I understand from your posts that you and your family had thought that ds's academic future in Science was 'set' and 'sorted'. I understand it is a shock to find out it is not. But there are so many things your ds can do. Instead of pushing for triple, perhaps now is the time for your ds to sit down with you both and think about what he enjoyes, where he sees himself in 5, 10, 15 years and work from there?

Ds's school, when we were choosing options, told us about a website called u-explore .com where you could look at the subjects your pupil enjoys / is good at and from there it lists A level courses / university courses / possible careers based on those interestes / courses.
We were told to spend some time looking at this with our dc to give them an idea of the careers out there.

Hope that helps

As I have said before, DS - with current Science levels higher than your DS's, though he's in mid Year 7 rather than Year 9 - will do double science, because that's what his school offers.

I have been assured by them that this is no barrier to him doing 3 sciences at A-level should be choose to (I was a scientist, so this is important to me).

Double science does not mean 'destined for an apprenticeship'. DS will do double science, but I fulle expect him to go to an academic university (though possibly not for Science - even though his Science / Maths results are very high, his heart lies in History / Geography / Languages)