Year 9 - an hour of homework on weekdays unreasonable?

[Shagmundfreud]

DD has just started at new school, and I've told her that I want her to sit down for an hour at the kitchen table with me every night and work. Homework if it's set, work set by me if she's got no homework. I also want her to read for 20 minutes a night (which is what the school expects too).

Last night she screamed at me that I'm COMPLETELY unreasonable expecting her to work for an hour after school, and that none of her friends are expected to do much. I look at my own extended family and see that the children the same age as dd are doing at least an hour if not more in year 9. But then they are hard working and high achieving children. I want dd to achieve her potential and not just coast lamely through secondary, scraping a few mediocre gcse's, like many girls at her school will. She's very bright, but incredibly lazy.

Is an hour a night an unreasonable expectation for year 9?

Sounds like a step forward.

May I ask who took the decision to change her schools (under the cicrcumstances I think I would have gone for the fresh start approach too). It made me wonder if the first week she was abit apprehensive of going and it was easier to fall into old ways than to take the leap and make the change. It is fab that she has apologised and done this herself.

Regarding her last term, yes I have been there too. It made me feel a mixture of anger, resignation, a failure but with DS I kept a steady stance. I reinforced the his 2 rules and did not back down. I think looking back it started in Year 9 too with DS, escalutated beginning of Year 10 but slowly the change began after Easter in Year 10. I think it dawned on him it is now or never.

Being the parent of a teenager I think is the hardest job ever and I only have 1 child, please do not think your are doing a rubbish job or that you are the only parent going through this - you are not. I also remember thinking I am not a bad person, I know I am not a bad parent but why is this happening. I shared an office with a lady whose DD had a hobby, did her homework everynight and volunteered to have extra tutition. That made me feel even more worse at times. Regarding your post above that none of your friends do not have a children who you feel are like yours - more than likely they have but won't admit it. Who is going to admit to their peer group that their child is a complete monster at home as it is taken as a personal failure.

Take each day as it comes, stick to your rules and most importantly pick your battles.

I also meant to say - having been there and finally emerging from the dark tunnel of teenage parenting- I recognise what you are doing and agree.

I think you are doing a fabulous job

I do think that sounds much more positive - but do try to back off on the little things, so she at least feels she has some control back, even if she fucks up a bit (like getting wet, for example).

I understand your defensiveness to Lucy's post - being called a shit mother because you are trying to do your best for your child is tough. I was called a control-freak for years by people who didn't realise just what ds was up to.

Shagmund, can you try keeping a note of what she does right as well as what she does wrong, and maybe have a weekly meeting where you start off with "ok, we have had a great week, mostly. You got up without being asked on x days, but we did have a bit of a row on Thursday, so maybe we should talk about that. You completed all your homework on x days, so I'm going to back off on x, y, z subjects, but I notice that on Friday you didn't fill in any homework, so I'm a bit concerned about that"

Along with "I've researched this, this and this as activities you might be interested in - would you like to pick one of them and we'll go and see"

You know - rather than nagging every day, bite your lip and at the end of the week tackle one or two things that need addressing, while praising at least twice that many things that are going well.

I also think it is worth reading swanthing's posts about your ds. I know in this house I have been so fixated on trying to ensure that ds1 (who has AS) is ok that I tend not to notice the many things that ds2 does right. I expect an awful lot of him and dd and I know I can be unfair sometimes in how I expect them to live.

I know I need to let 9/10's of what she's doing go, and I'm not doing that at the moment.

It's very, very hard because there's simply SO MUCH objectionable behaviour at the moment.

Two weeks ago she hit ds1 (9) in the face over pretty much nothing (he said something silly to her as she was passing). The blood was pouring from his nose, down his arms, over the kitchen units and on to the floor. He's tiny for his age and on the whole backs her up on everything because he's frightened of her.

She was completely unrepentant. Said he needs to toughen up before he gets to secondary or the other kids will make mincemeat of him.

She swears in front of ds2 (who has ASD) knowing he'll copy her. She's laughed at him, told him he's sad and has no friends. He's 7 and knows he has aspergers. She has called him a 'freak'. To his face. More than once.

This morning DH asked her to empty and stack the dishwasher as her one chore for the day. She screamed and shouted about how it was 'disgusting', telling him at least 20 times in a loud voice that she didn't want to do it, that she wasn't going to do it. Eventually she did it - DH is very calm and just reiterated over and over again that she had to do it. So eventually she did it, but only after she'd ruined our nice Sunday morning breakfast by yelling and being objectionable, insisting on switching over the TV so she could watch Hollyoaks (we'd all been watching something else) while she did it. You feel worn down by the task of just trying to get her to do the basics.

Feck. If I had a thing for the sauce I'd be drunk every morning now.

Shag's top parenting tip: join Audible and download a cracking audio book. Get good noise reducing headphones. Listen to book all day and ignore children.

I downloaded 23 hours worth of The Killing a couple of weeks ago. Lasted me for 5 days. Just finished Kazuo Ishiguru's Nocturnes, a Nick Hornby and am about to download another one. Will go for length I think - at least 20 hours of listening.

That all sounds like really attention seeking behaviour and comes across as very nasty, but I wonder is she subconciously pushing you away so she can confirm (to herself) that you care more about them than about her?

You need to separate what you can control from what you can't, to minimise the disruption for the other children.

You probably need to go back to basic basics, iyswim. No violence would be my number one rule (and resulted in much time in his bedroom for ds1).

Sit down with dh and make a fairly simple list of what she has to do each day. Stick to that only; let other things go. But the things you decide on need instant consistent consequences - loss of freedom/phone/laptop/attention whatever she minds about.

Positive encouragement is soooooo difficult when they do very little that is positive, but you really have to look for it or the whole thing just continues in a negative spiral.

I agree with Maryzed.

And can you carve out some time for you both to go for a coffee and cake together (preferably when she is in a good mood), when you can chat to her as a growing-up teen rather than being the nagging mum? We are planning to do this later!

I think you did brilliantly to get her
a) apologise
b) unload that dw! who cares if other people's children have been unloading dws since they were 7, for her that was a first step, and I guarantee that the next time she does it, it will be a whole lot less hasselly. We had this with our ds1, the screaming and screaming over simple tasks (in his case to write two sentences for holiday homework) Second day he had no problem but it took a battle lasting three hours on first day for him to do the same task on second day in 30 mins, no problems. And thereafter.

P.S. my daughter 10 will quite often call ds2 (ASD) weirdo, say that no-one likes him, he is ruining her life. I think whilst it is painful to hear, and v painful for him to hear, that is how she is feels and it is better she has chance to articulate and change how she feels than pretend she doesn't feel that way. Deep down she loves him dearly and will defend him to all and sundry. He is bound up in all sorts of negative feelings about herself, and us, and not surprisingly she chooses to express it as blame for him.

Take care.

Siblings can be horrible to each other at times - DD went through a phase of saying she hated DS which tore my heart out as I would have given anything to have had a sibling!

shag on the outside interests thing, are any of her friends' parents approachable or might also be in despair over lack of hobbies? If you could join forces with a friend's parent to sign them up for an activity, you might get somewhere.

They tend to hate doing anything without friends. If she took up an interest with one of her mates, there might be an incentive to turn up and to stick at whatever it might be.

I'm glad to read you've made some breakthroughs.

I was struck by OP's statements like:

in the competitive world of education in the UK it's so hard to accept that your children are failing to meet their potential, and that there's nothing you can do about it

But that's normal . I mean normal for most children not to meet their potential. Because they're disorganised, disinterested, immature, selfish, short-sighted, lazy, emotionally compromised, stressed, etc. Most of those things to some degree if not hugely. It's a miracle that many do reach their potential, although often not until they are in their 20s or so.

Sorry just how competitive is this school, have you moved her to a different school OP because you wanted one that was higher pressure than the last one? Did she agree to that?

"But that's normal . I mean normal for most children not to meet their potential"

My other two don't either, but dd is SPECTACULARLY under-achieving because of a profound unwillingness to EVER put her self out.

"Sorry just how competitive is this school, have you moved her to a different school OP because you wanted one that was higher pressure than the last one? Did she agree to that?"

Her last school was an inner city comp with a VERY high percentage of poor children and a low percentage of high achieving children.

Her current school is an inner city comp with a high-ish percentage of poor children and a slightly higher percentage of high achieving children.

Shag - Not what you want to hear but at this age the personality is quite set.

Can I just clarify things....I did not call you controlling or a shit mother. What I am trying to say (probably not very well) is that you are dealing with something very hard and it would be perfectly ok to get some help with this. Your child's behaviour is very difficult and you have a chance to turn it around and it sounds like you are doing that. I don't believe that personality is set and what you do now will make a difference to how she feels about herself and you and how she will behave going forward.
Sorry, if I offended, that was not my intention. All of the research shows that you are not a fully formed adult until well into your 20s (yes, I do work in this field) and so there is alot that can be done. I am loathe to say anything else as it seems like an intention to help will be misconstrued.

Leave the extra homework, you have far more important things to sort out first like the way DD speaks to you both and her lack of communication when she is out.

I am going to ask about your DH's approach as you only mentioned him in one post but the two of you should be working as a team.

When our DD2 (now 14) was being very difficult two years ago DH was better at handling her as he did not get as wound up and emotional as I did. He was very tough with her and he would deal with her and talk to her as much as I did.

Two years on and we have moved on from major tantrums every weekend to very rarely, in fact I can't remember the last one and DD is working hard on her school work. She still can't hang up a wet towel or make her bed without a reminder but I ignore. In the great scheme of things it doesn't matter.

Don't sweat the small stuff.

shagmund I read this thread with interest as having DC who don't give of their best is my dread.

I can put up with all manner of teenaged malarkey, but not taking up opportunities that most DC around the world would kill for, is unpardonable.

I think if it were me I'd keep talking, talking, talking. Some of it must go in!

1 hour a night is not unusual or unreasonable for a Yr9 pupil imo.

My yr9 DD has just started at a new school (boarding) and has a set prep (homework) session every evening for an hour and half. This is not at all unusual - we looked at lots of different boarding schools over the past 2 years and in year nine it seems that all the schools we looked at had a minimum hour and half set prep session every evening for year 9 students and some had 2 hours every night. The only evening of the week DD does not have a set prep session is a Saturday.

I believe by year 10 this increases to 2 hours every evening.

My DD who is currently fairly studious says she usually completes the bulk of her prep in just over an hour, that said though, she usually spends and hour or 2 of her own time on a saturday doing prep as well.

I am guessing if boarding schools (state and private) run on these similar timescales then its what expected of a year 9 student.

Sadly - how you actually get a reluctant teen to sit down and actually use the time productively, I am not sure. You can enforce all you like but doubt the results will be particuarly positive. But - surely being strict about it and trying to set a good regular routine where you both know whats expected has to be better than doing nothing and leaving her to her own devices. Its a hard one. They can be so stubborn at 13/14.

I feel for you OP, the teen years can be the pits!
The only thing I can offer - and forgive me if I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs-is that we're very big on incentives with our kids (15 and 10), generally of the financial variety. Some may call it bribery but good exam results= reward, good report at parents night=reward, good report card=reward. It needn't be a fortune, but making them aware that hard work is rewarded does seem to help in our house.
I sincerely hope it gets better for you, we're not without issues with our teen just now

Wanted to update the thead.

Have INSISTED this week that dd sit down and work for an hour every night. Without her phone. Without the tv on. Without her music on. (yes - I know that music can help some children concentration, but not loud, aggressive rap music for a child with a concentration span of 3 seconds!)

So Monday night she was sat at the table doing a really easy, nice homework, which was to copy a Jean Basquiat portrait.

She moaned, and moaned, and moaned. "I can't do it! I'm crap at art!" "I can't see the point in doing this!" "I'm just going to trace it! In pencil".

I stood over her and made her do it properly, in oil crayons. Telling her to add detail. Go over this bit, sort out that bit. Eventually she finished and it looked GREAT. She was very happy with it.

Sadly she had a paddy over something really trivial towards the end of the hour, and shredded it into pieces. DH came back and made her sit down and do it again, which she did.

Tuesday she went to school late - couldn't get her out of bed because she'd been up until past 11pm finishing off her art. She stomped off without her coat or packed lunch, but I just left it.

When she got back I tried to make her sit down and do her maths but she refused because I wouldn't let her turn the tv on while she was doing it. So she stormed off into her room for the evening.

Wednesday night told her that she had to do 1 and a half hours to make up for not doing homework at the table. Amazingly she actually did it. Albeit with a MASSIVE input from DH, who stood over her and made her complete her maths. Again - "I can't do it!". Errr, yes you can! And she did.

Again last night made her do an hour and a half.

So today we gave her £10 and permission to go out with her cousin tonight. Because she'd managed (with lots of support forcing) to sit down and work.

And I'm going to keep at it. I'm just not prepared to compromise on this one.

And you know what? I think in a weird way she actually likes us forcing the issue. She has no self-discipline at the moment, and very poor concentration. I think she knows that we're helping her achieve, and that this will make her time at school happier.

So happy also, that, although it's early days, her new school seems to be working out for her. She seems so much more relaxed than she was at her old school, and I'm sure that's because of an absence of boys. Also because the intake is very much more mixed than her previous school. Her old school was very scary (although she didn't seem scared of going in).

"You can enforce all you like but doubt the results will be particuarly positive."

Watch this space!

I'm hoping she'll get into a positive feedback loop at school. That having praise from the teachers will boost her self-esteem.

I think teens, while saying they want autonomy, actually want us to remain in charge. They know deep down that out there on their own is A Really Scary Place.

All you can do while you set boundaries and they rail agaiants them is explain ad infinitum your reasoning. Providing your reasoning makes sense and isn't of the 'because I say so' school of parenting, some of it will sink in.

Also, I take any opportunity when things are calm to tell them how the world is. And how within that context my boundaries make sense.

Hi Shagmund thanks for the update, I do have a quick look to see if you have.

First week over - I bet that's a relief. It does make you wonder if at her old school she had set herself an image which she then felt compelled to fulfill. Yes I hope the school do praise her and give positive feedback, for some families the homework would not be an issue, it would just get done, but for your DD to complete it (with support) was a big achievement. I also see you have mentioned DH quite alot in your post and that is great, at least DD knows she cannot play one off against another and consistency of expectations, boundaries and praise is not going to do any harm.

I am trying so hard not to sound patronising but again would like to repeat I think you are doing fabulously - don't get downhearted if you have to repeat all of this week next week though, Rome was not built in a day as the old saying goes.

Wordfactory - you are SO right.

I think it has taken me a while to realise this with dd because she's such an unusual child. She really is VERY confident in her approach. She can hold her own in conversation with an adult and is happy to talk to anyone. People are often very surprised at her and say she's not like a 13 year old at all. She doesn't do 'shy'. So unlike me at the same age. I think I didn't take enough account of the fact that underneath she is a BABY in lots of ways. She's an August birthday and has suffered from being one of the youngest in her year. Bigging herself up all the time and putting on a front.

So yes - DH and I will be enforcing boundaries no matter the howls of outrage!

Go Shagmund!

My DD is being bloody rude ATM - she is really tired and has an extremely busy half term lined up. Gulp.