Year 9 - an hour of homework on weekdays unreasonable?

[Shagmundfreud]

DD has just started at new school, and I've told her that I want her to sit down for an hour at the kitchen table with me every night and work. Homework if it's set, work set by me if she's got no homework. I also want her to read for 20 minutes a night (which is what the school expects too).

Last night she screamed at me that I'm COMPLETELY unreasonable expecting her to work for an hour after school, and that none of her friends are expected to do much. I look at my own extended family and see that the children the same age as dd are doing at least an hour if not more in year 9. But then they are hard working and high achieving children. I want dd to achieve her potential and not just coast lamely through secondary, scraping a few mediocre gcse's, like many girls at her school will. She's very bright, but incredibly lazy.

Is an hour a night an unreasonable expectation for year 9?

"Because I have learned over the years [bitter] that if a child is unhappy they will not achieve academically."

She seems quite happy. As long as she is allowed to do WHATEVER SHE WANTS.

mummytime - I don't think she'll do an activity just because I tell her to.

In the past have taken lap-top and phone away for a whole term. Made no difference. She was still rude and lazy.

The thing that I find incredibly frustrating is that her teachers generally like her very much and find her charming and bright. To the point that they tend to overlook the fact that SHE NEVER DOES ANY WORK.

Yes. I feel like giving up and letting her fail. I can't take the vicious abuse that is her response to any attempts to make her work.

But Shagmund, think about it, is she really happy?

Happy children do things, they have friends, they go out and about, they talk to other children in real life not on Facebook. They do activities, they play sports, they are interested in lots of different things, not just watching tv by themselves on their laptops.

She doesn't sound happy to me.

Is she really lazy or could she be depressed? Because depressed people hit out in anger if challenged on their seeming laziness.

Children of that age should be full of energy and enthusiasm (in my son's case it is channelled into sports and causing trouble , but you couldn't doubt his enthusiasm for life). If they show little interest in anything I would be worried.

Just a suggestion . Of course she might be genuinely happy to fail at everything, but few children are really happy to do that, they have just sort of drifted into having low expectations of themselves - and live down to those expectations.

Thankyou for that link MaryZed

I think I may decide to view her catastrophic laziness as a fundamental part of who she is. It's not just something that has become obvious since she's been a teenager. She's never really tried hard at anything.

Some children don't achieve because they're not that bright. Others because they have a personality flaw. She has a massive personality flaw in that she is can't sustain effort in things she doesn't immediately find pleasurable. This is likely to impact on her life chances in a massive way. I think I need to accept her the way she is.

And I'll have to train myself not to have an emotional breakdown every time I hear about the successful, hard-working children of friends, family and colleagues.

Christ - in the competitive world of education in the UK it's so hard to accept that your children are failing to meet their potential, and that there's nothing you can do about it as a parent. It's devastating.

Hi OP, for me, the biggest problem would be her attitude towards you. Yes, she's teenager, but there are limits.
I would take her laptop away and hand it out with time limits after she has done her homework, which you check - it's been an issue before, NOW is the time to show her how to deal with homework. (I hope she has a planner).
It sounds like she needs you to get organised - help her.
To pass the buck to the school could (!) mean that nothing gets done about it. If she's not really bothered about school rules (make up) the school will give detentions, but it won't help her how to organize her day.

Also, the "doing nothing" - she does something: she watches hours of rubbish on her laptop. I wouldn't allow it.
I also have a Y9 DD, I never check her homework, but I ask if everything is done and remind her if necessary. She has never had a late work slip and her grades are good, so homework is her own thing.

Find her something she likes doing. Just to say "no" to everything is easy. But if you take her laptop away she will be so bored that she might agree to try something.

On some things I would swallow a chill pill: going to school without coat for example. My daughter still does that, even if it's pouring. That's her problem!
Nagging and pleading to get her out of bed, that I wouldn't do. Let her be late for school, and arrange with the form tutor that it's ok to keep her in for detention after school on the days she's late.
If she doesn't use her mobile to call or text you where she is, she doesn't need a mobile for a while until she remembers what the most important reason is for having one.

"They do activities, they play sports, they are interested in lots of different things, not just watching tv by themselves on their laptops."

She has a lot of friends. She goes out. She's always communicating by text and phone. She's not lonely. She'd be out every day if we let her - hanging around the park with her friends, or at the shops. She just doesn't want to DO anything productive or that will develop her as an individual.

Oh, yes, don't compare - that way madness lies. And don't take is so personally - she isn't doing this purely to annoy you (though that may be an added benefit for her).

My younger two are quite lucky. ds1 went so spectacularly off the rails, and was so seriously unhappy, that all they have to do is smile at me once a day and stay in school until they are 18 and I will be very grateful.

It doesn't stop me venting my frustration on here and yelling at them occasionally but in reality I know that they will be ok as adults. They may not achieve to their full potential academically, but they will make up for it in other ways [hopeful]

And what coffee said about the lateness, the coat and the phone contact, for example. Instant consequences for things you can control; ignore those you can't.

Okay. If she does not work, then I let school deal with it; and maybe start secretly saving for when at 23, she comes desperate to get the qualifications she has messed up now. I would remove laptop, and replace phone with a "rubbish" one like this. If at all possible I would be escorting her to and from school until she can assure me she will keep me informed of her whereabouts. Then I would use alarm clocks and let her get into trouble at school for being late (although if I left for work I would ensure all children were out of the house when I left).

I think you need to deal with the respect issues, and if school likes her so much they can deal with the academic ones.

x-posted.

. Do her friends not do anything? Could you bribe persuade her to do the Duke of Edinburgh (is that what it's called - it's Gaisce here), or something like that?

"NOW is the time to show her how to deal with homework. (I hope she has a planner).
It sounds like she needs you to get organised - help her."

We do. We check her bag to make sure she has all the things she needs. I check her uniform is ready the night before. I clean and tidy her room. I go through her homework diary and know her time-table. I've tried in the past to leave her to take responsibility for these things, and the result was a disaster. Even with us helping her like this she manages to forget things or mess them up.

"But if you take her laptop away she will be so bored that she might agree to try something".

We have removed her lap top for a whole term before. She still did no work. In fact she used her not having a lap top as an excuse for doing no homework.

Ditto with mobile. She would use that as an excuse not to contact me and I would have no idea where she was and no way of contacting her.

Who gave her the money to buy the makeup you argued about? Stop buying it until she behaves respectfully and fairly.
If she wont bring a bag to school, that?s her problem, let her get detention.
If she wont go to guides, drama, dance e.t.c. why do you allow her to sit and watch TV? Either she finds something she enjoys doing or she can sit bored for 2 hours.
If she wont help around the house they don't wash her clothes or clean her room. If she's into fashion she will be embarrassed to be seen in dirty clothes and start to help out.
If she wont wear a coat then let her go to school wet, she will soon its not pleasant sitting in wet clothes.
Who bought her the phone? Who went to pick her up, let her walk and face the consequences of her actions.

Who gives her credit to use on text messages etc. You can restrict a phone to only being able to phone home in emergencies.
Ask for the schools help in solving the homework diary issue, you talking to her wont solve the issue.
Getting them out of bed is a hard one... I would suggest you enforce an earlier and earlier bedtime until she cooperates on getting up on time. Whether or not she sleeps is up to her but don't let her have TV?s, computers, phone etc. in the bedroom. So she can only stay up later if she proves she can get up on time.
If she isn't coming home without telling you where she is then you need to get on top of that one. Involve the school, and take away ALL her privileges, you might even have to ring the police if she's late home.
If she doesnt like the food you cook then let her go hungry.

All I can say is stop fighting her, as you cant win. be a parent lay down the rules and stick to them.

Right now it sounds like both of you are hurting to also add on an hours study a night and 20 mins reading. It would be nice but maybe a bit much at the moment. I would limit it to getting her homework done, and only give her back her phone/laptop/makeup etc as rewards for being more productive.

My DS does very little, doesn't even "hang out" with friends. I'm not worried too much because he actually does quite a lot on his computer, admittedly I am nagging him because: he needs to get his work done now he is in sixth form, and he needs to actually admit to his school he does anything.

I have to try very hard to bite my tongue because his sister is the opposite, she belongs to lots of things and is very active. Admittedly she isn't as active as some of her friends who manage: to go to top academic schools and do all home work, and belong to 2+ choirs, and at least one county orchestra, do D of E Gold, be a Brownie leader, and have lessons in 3 instruments (as well as boyfriends and go to concerts and.....).

Don't compare with others, their parents may be either lying or lied to anyhow.

She incredibly like DD1 at the same age - she didn't try because then you can't fail. Not a massive personality flaw rather the fact that she had massively low self esteem. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and we didn't deal with it very well at the time. She's 21 now and perfectly capable of working incredibly hard but in year 9 (and 10,11,12 and 13!) she would do the minimum. No hobbies, no schoolwork and a bad attitude to us and school.

'Do her friends not do anything?'

We're a middle class professional family but dd she seems to have made friends with a lot of children from disadvantaged backgrounds - kids from big, poor immigrant families, or children who've been in care, or expelled from school. Compared to them she seems quite successful I think because she's articulate and confident, and is in top sets at school, despite not doing any work. In all truth most of these girls don't seem to have hobbies or interests.

I would not clean her room, she's old enough.
You wrote you check her homework etc, but then that's all you can do!
I would let her have the computer to do her homework (maybe at the dining table while you are around and can have an eye on her).
She sounds a really strong personality, and that's good for a girl to be confident. But she can't treat you like she does and I wonder where this comes from? From her friends? She would be grounded if she was mine after saying rude things to deliberately hurt me.
Don't let it get at you though. Does she get enough attention from you 1:1? Is the homework issue a way of getting it? Maybe find something you two can do together!

"Don't compare with others, their parents may be either lying or lied to anyhow".

It's really hard for me because DH's extended family live locally and their children (who are very close in age to dd) are genuinely bright, hard-working and successful. And nice. I dread family parties where I have to sit and listen to their litany of successes - sporting tours abroad, exam successes, musical performances..... I have to sit and smile and give sincere praise, while wanting to curl up and cry.

I feel like such a failure as a parent.

YABU to set extra work IMO.
School should be setting homework, which maybe more than an hour some nights and less others. My yr 9 does about an hour a night when averaged out.

"She sounds a really strong personality"

She is!

would she not even read some of those romantic teenage vampire stories?

I think I would back off completely with schoolwork and work on some ground rules for behaviour.

You are not a failute of a parent.

I have had to sit through family dinners cringing because my niece was supposed to be heading off to do medicine, when my son dropped out of school at 15 and was smoking dope .

BUT - it will be interesting to see in a few years' time what happens. I wouldn't be surprised if my niece drops out of medical school and ds has now found a new interest and gone to college.

We can push as much as we can, but ultimately we can't change them, we can only change how we react to them.

Expecting respect, expecting her to tell you where she is, expecting her to be polite and to keep the communal areas of the house tidy is reasonable.

Backing the school in their enforcement of their academic expectations is reasonable.

Driving yourself bonkers because you can't make her keep her room tidy, do extra study or wear a coat isn't reasonable. You are setting yourself up to fail.

Figure out what you can do and do it; back off a bit where you can.

Pray for her to grow up

chloe - I don't see any value in reading utter shit any more than watching shit television. Once a child has a high reading age then what's the purpose in them reading books which won't stretch their imaginations or vocabulary? She's got a handful of Louise Rennison books which she rereads every now and again but she wouldn't read a newspaper or try anything challenging, because she doesn't want to do anything that's not immediately easy and gratifying.

"Pray for her to grow up"

At the moments my prayers are centred on her not having a baby before she's an independent, mature adult. We live in an area which has one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates in London. Some of her friends are the offspring of very young teenage parents, so I suspect it's only a matter of time before someone in her social circle gives birth.

DD loves babies.

Oh dear.

dd does too. I want to sit her down and forcibly insert some sort of implant but apparently that's against the law .

I think prayers and are the only answers.

Sorry but I have to conclude that it is you who has the problem. You want her to do you credit, and for you to be able to celebrate her achievements with the rest of your family. How many years have ou been comparing her to them? Would you consider family therapy?

and a chat about birth control! 13 is not too young to be a mum, and I agree, preventing that would be my highest priority.