Year 9 - an hour of homework on weekdays unreasonable?

[Shagmundfreud]

DD has just started at new school, and I've told her that I want her to sit down for an hour at the kitchen table with me every night and work. Homework if it's set, work set by me if she's got no homework. I also want her to read for 20 minutes a night (which is what the school expects too).

Last night she screamed at me that I'm COMPLETELY unreasonable expecting her to work for an hour after school, and that none of her friends are expected to do much. I look at my own extended family and see that the children the same age as dd are doing at least an hour if not more in year 9. But then they are hard working and high achieving children. I want dd to achieve her potential and not just coast lamely through secondary, scraping a few mediocre gcse's, like many girls at her school will. She's very bright, but incredibly lazy.

Is an hour a night an unreasonable expectation for year 9?

Y9 (last year) seemed to me to be a bit of a dossy year; my son got set minimal homework.

He is now in y10 and gets about 2 hours per night. I worry about his lack of swottiness; but he rarely gets below an A* in tests, so I am having to accept his laissez faire attitude.

Reading is a battle; but I have told him I am not signing his reading record this term unless he reads the required amount. (Minimum of 1 per half term, not exactly hard to manage)

I force him to do 10 whole minutes on guitar every day otherwise he'd do none.

I make a conscious effort to not be negative with him as I can see how easy it is to fall into this at 13/14. I notice how much he laps up compliments and responds to them.

That he's happy and wanting to spend time with us and talk about school life counts for so much. I have had to get over the fact he is never going to be bookish.

It's hard being parent to a teen sometimes but you need to pick your battles before she really resents you. Oh and think 'this too shall pass'.

Shagmundfreud - I agree those books are tripe, but you suggest she might read them. It seems to me that if you are faced with her reading nothing you will never get her interested in worthwhile literature. I was trying to think of a compromise you could make to give you a starting point. Reading anything must be better than watching HollyOaks and if she got interested in books then it would be a lot easier to get her moved onto something deeper. Why not give them a try, they can inspire the imagination and spark something greater. Reading can be for fun and not just education.

All sympathy to you OP. It is the hardest age in Y9/10.

You sound very worn down by it all. Somehow you need to break the cycle you're stuck in. Do you ever have fun with her? Maybe watch a film together or comedy? It sounds as though you're so frustrated and concerned on her behalf that you are losing any joy in the relationship. Do you or dh have interests of your own, and do you read regularly? Even at that age it is worth modeling behaviour.

She is in the top sets, so she must be doing relatively well, in our school that would mean the teachers are expecting A*s and so on at GCSE. It's good that her attititude at school is good, even if it's not at home. It would be worse the other way round really.

As other have said, pick your battles carefully, non coat wearing is normal for the age as are messy rooms. Only deal with the stuff that really matters.

I also recommend the 'how to talk to teens..' book, sorry crap at links. It's American but I found it interesting. Teen dd also read it, so she knows how ard it is for parents, too

I agree on encouraging her to read tripe - dd reads anything, but reads at least two grotty books for every one half-decent one.

The series books are great for pure quantity reading, which has the benefit of speeding up their reading which does help when trying to make notes and study, picking out the important bits. Teenagers can get out of the habit of reading (not to mention the appalling effect of txtspk).

Jude, I'm laughing at you (sorry), having to make your son do guitar. At the moment ds2 is banned from doing more than an hour a day as I can't get him off the fecking thing.

"Sorry but I have to conclude that it is you who has the problem. You want her to do you credit, and for you to be able to celebrate her achievements with the rest of your family. How many years have ou been comparing her to them? Would you consider family therapy?"

I want her to be happy and to have a good life.

She will not have a happy adult life if she won't work hard at anything.

I have a younger child with ASD who has gone up into Juniors this year with a level 1 in his SATS in writing. I am so proud of him because he TRIES. I want him to succeed but I'm not ashamed of him struggling academically.

It is terrible as a parent to see a child appear to be sabotaging their future.

You feel guilty and you feel as though there is SOMETHING you ought to be doing to change it.

"She is in the top sets, so she must be doing relatively well"

Her reading age at 12 was 15.5; she has a mind like a steel trap - a phenomenal memory (except for practical stuff like how much money she needs for her bus fare!); she comes across as very confident and VERY articulate. Particularly compared to her peers. Bright middle class kids who participate in class and smarm their teachers often end up in top sets in comprehensives which have a disproportionate intake of disadvantaged kids. She does almost no work. When I took her out of her last school her work books were practically empty. All she had to show for two terms work was a couple of pages of scrawl in some subjects.

Yes but sometimes whatever you do makes it worse.
I had a year from hell with my 13 year old dd.
She ran away twice. She was meeting up with older boys/men that she was "meeting" on Facebook because "all her friends were"

She was slowly destroying her life. I worried constantly she was going to be raped or come home pregnant at 13.

I feel for you because the area of London we live in sounds like what you described earlier. All her friends were running the street at all hours so she used to try and sneak out.

She refused point blank at first to go to any type of family counseling, she insisted that she wanted to go to social services and be put in care. And she meant it as well.

We insisted on family counseling and she also had individual counseling. We also took her out of school and sent to her a school outside of london to see if that had any effect.

For the last couple of months she has got serious about schoolwork, GCSE start this year, a couple of them anyway and she wants to be a lawyer.
We go out together every Wednesday evening, just for coffee or a film or an early dinner, just me and her. It's nice to spend a bit of time together now.

But I can honestly say that nothing we did had any effect other than to make her behavior worse.
The counseling helped. Moving her out of the environment where this behaviour was the norm helped. But she made the decision to stay at home, get her head down and do well.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is there's only so much you can do. It's up to her to change her behaviour. And I also know that saying to you to do nothing is ridiculous. I know it is.

I guess what I mean is, however much you want to, you cannot change her behaviour. But you can change how you react to it. Does that make sense?

Do not feel like a failure - the teenage years will destroy you if you let it.

I agree with the posts regarding backing off with the homework and establishing some ground rules at home.

My DS, just completed GCSE's, did hardly any homework for all of his secondary school. I did goto every parents evening, much to his disgust, and talked with the teachers re progress, concerns. When GCSE's kicked in, they start in Year 9 at his school, we focussed on practise papers at home. In Year 11 I discussed with each teacher what he would get at school and which subjects to focus on at home. Was there any point me trying to get him to do study for all the subjects when only 2 needed the extra time.

DS decided very early on he wanted to be an electrician, yes he was capable of getting A's at every subject but he didn't need it. He wasn't going to university (had my own tears at that but got over it) not doing A Levels. He needed 5 GCSE's at grade C including English and Maths and got 14.

My rule for DS was 'as long as school didn't contact me I would leave the decsions to him but if school did contact me he was grounded for that week and I would get involved with his homework plans'. On the quiet I encouraged school to contact whenever there was an issue - eg deadlines not met. I was lucky with his school, it was a definate 'we' that got him through.

Regarding your DD - is she sabotaging her future or is she bright enough to know what she needs to do and is doing it in school. Have her progress levels dropped?

I also agree very much with Chloe74's post further up and also pick your battles. So what if she doesn't tidy her room, so what if she doesn't wear a coat, if she gets wet it will dry. Pick your battles - she is only in Year 9, you have got to get through to the end of Year 11, at this rate you'll be exhausted by Christmas.

The teenage years are awful, heartbreaking, make you question your own sanity but you are not the only one going through this. Start talking to friends with children the same age. It doesn't matter if you are a multi millionare or do not have two pennies teenagers are teenagers and nearly all parents will be expereincing to some degree what you are.

Sorry for the long post but DS has just tunred 17 and even 6 months ago I never thought that for one minute we would be where we are now. It does get better, it may get worse but it does get better, not overnight but eventually the time in between arguements, flare ups does get longer.

Thank you everyone for your stories.

Tantrums - that must have been very scary for you. Glad your dd is coming out of things OK.

"Start talking to friends with children the same age. It doesn't matter if you are a multi millionare or do not have two pennies teenagers are teenagers and nearly all parents will be expereincing to some degree what you are."

They are, but unfortunately none of them seems to have a child who is as lazy as dd. All of my friends have children who are occasionally rude, rebellious, or miserable, or unfocused, but they all seem to make SOME effort at school. Do their homework. Have a hobby. Help a bit around the house.

Something good to come from this thread - I have decided that I need to do something for myself,so if I can find the money to pay for an evening class. I really need to distract myself from what's going on at home.

Shagmundfreud yes that is a great idea - I took up running with a friend. Those 2 sessions a week were great therapy. She also has teenage boys (5) and is far fitter than me but to trot round with her listening whilst running and then putting the world to rights for 10 minutes at the end saved me.

Also my DS's hobby consisted of grunting, mumbling and sitting in the armchair!

Shagmund I wonder, do you tell her a lot that you think she's lazy and rude? because if you do that's maybe what she's decided to be.

If I knew my mum thought I had a 'a massive personality flaw' I'm not sure how motivated I'd be to do well.

Your pride in your DS is obvious but I don't get any sense of you being proud of dd just disppointed and angry.

Are you close to her? What's good in your relationship?

I tell her that she's clever and gorgeous and that I expect a lot of her.

I tell her she's got a flair for writing - she has. She has a lovely singing voice. I tell her, but because she can't do R&B vocal gymnastics she thinks this means she can't really sing. She can, and she's got great musicality.

But she IS very rude and I will never stand by and listen to rudeness and not remark on it.

Can I make another suggestion.

Try keeping a diary of the interaction you have with her, the good and the bad. Make a note of the days she does get up, the times she does her homework without complaining, the days she is (reasonably) polite.

Because I find when mine are really getting to me, if I keep a diary of both the good and the bad, the good actually outweighs the bad. It's just that I notice the bad behaviour, the irritating things, the odd day they don't get up or argue about ridiculous things.

90% of the time, though, they are great.

She goes to school every day, gets up on time (usually), does her homework, doesn't get into trouble, tells you where she is (most of the time) etc etc. For your own sanity you have to make sure you notice these things, and not just when she doesn't behave.

You are unreasonable to set such a fixed amount of time.

She should do the schoolwork set by school as a matter of course, and very thoroughly (and you should check what she has to do and that she has indeed completed it) and the 20 minutes of reading.

But don't set her extra work unless she is behind. Rather, try to find her some kind of extra-curricular activity that is fun but also uses her brain (drama can be good).

Shagmund I was just reading back in this thread and what struck me was the mention of your son with ASD who you feel very proud of.
My dd can be exceptionally rude and pick fights; she has a twin brother with ASD, and we have only slowly come to realise how much attention she lost along the way; how much we supported her brother and how that affected her self-esteem in very subtle ways.
Have you read Sibling Rivalry by the How to Talk So Children Listen team. It is very illuminating on how you can role cast children quite early on without meaning to.
The latter book also explains how sometimes the way you say things makes such a difference to their reactions. How the wrong kind of praise can sometimes seem like a lead weight, or "block" the way.They are crushed by your expectations.
just thought I would mention it, because I think from what you are saying you feel very cross with her for letting herself down - everytime you praise her you are in fact reminding her in so many words...you are good at this, but...that she is letting herself down, and that is the message she is getting, not your belief in her.

I so completely understand how easy it is to just feel fed up with the sheer rudeness/selfishness dd's can sometimes exhibit. Today dd (10) was screaming at me to make her a 50's petticoat, and complaining about this and that as I slaved away (I dunno why I always end up doing these things for her . I insisted she tidy her room before I made it, suddenly I felt completely determined she was going to observe a simple contractual arrangement...I do this for her, she does that for me first...

Today I had a long talk with Dh, not particularily fruitful I may add, where we were discussing how we should just start with "one thing" (in this case kids should be making their own breakfast, not having it prepared for them) that we use to make the children feel proud of themselves, and us feel less their slaves..

So maybe just try "one thing" rather than a whole hour, just one thing she does - could be make you a cup of coffee in the morning, could be take the rubbish out, could be do 10 mins of work at kitchen table. And go from there. And don't expect miracles.

Fwiw, my mother used to spend countless hours telling me that if I didn't tidy my room, no-one would want to marry me , screaming at me how untidy I was. To this day I have remained completely and utterly untidy. So it did me absolutely no good to be told off. However, the things she praised me for, I tended to work harder at She was a very kind good mum, but she did get that one wrong. I realise now that she screamed at me out of fear, for me, and for herself, as she was in fact extremely untidy herself. So sometimes we just project onto our children our own worries about ourself.

Also sound brilliant that you are doing something for yourself, v important.

Great posts swanthing good to be reminded that sometimes it's the way you praise that is as important than just the fact that you do it.

I would say that getting the children to choose one thing they are responsible for is a very good idea. And to add to the list as time goes on, of course.

Stop moaning at her and go and get some help.
I don't mean to be mean but it would seem that neither of you are doing particularly well at your jobs, of being a mother or a child. There is no shame in that I don't think any of us get it particularly right but this is going spectacularly wrong. It has taken me years to get over my relationship with my mother and it is only now when I have had children that I had get over myself otherwise my children would have no grandparents and I would have a relationship she would regret. She was incredibly controlling and nothing I did ever felt good enough. In her eyes - we never worked hard enough or fulfilled our potential. My sisters have spent most of their lives resenting her. (My eldest sisters are in their late 50s so that is a very long time).
You have a choice now to work on your relationship with your daughter and put it right and then you can go from there. I would go and find out where you can get some help with your relationship and do it from the point of view that you need help with how to parent and not from the point of view of blaming her. If I was in her shoes I would feel blamed and judged and you would get no where from there.
Being a parent is really hard and their is no manual - you can only do your best and sometimes we need other options. If what you are doing isn't working do something else. The more you try to control the more she will resist. Also, I don't think giving up is an option- you chose to have her.

Lucy - please don't bring your particular (perhaps unresolved) issues with your mother to my thread.

I'm not controlling.

My dd is a very bright girl who has chosen not to make any effort with her education.

It's not that anything she does 'isn't good enough'. She doesn't do anything (other that watch tv and text) for me to judge!

In her last term at her previous school (before summer) she managed to clock up 23 detentions in 24 weeks.

I had teachers on the phone every week telling me that she wouldn't complete work, was arguing with them in class, was doing no work in lessons.

Every year the children had to do what's called 'academic mentoring' when they had to bring in a piece of work they were proud of and talk about it. She couldn't find a single piece of work that she'd done in year 8 that she'd actually completed, let alone feel proud to talk about. Her exercise books were empty (and very thin because she'd torn half the pages out to write notes on to her friends).

She started at a new school this week. A fresh start. Which would involve her doing homework. Filling out her reading and homework diary. Getting up on time. And apparently the fact that I've taken issue with her not doing this IN HER FIRST WEEK IN A HER NEW SCHOOL makes me a controlling parent, a failure, and someone who is going to psychologically damage her children by being impossible to please. Actually I'm very easy to please. My children just have to make a bit of effort and I'm happy and full of praise.

"I don't think giving up is an option"

OFFS - I'm not giving up on parenting her. I just feel like giving up trying to get her to achieve educationally.

Update:

DD apologised sincerely to me yesterday. We had a good cuddle and I told her that she was going to have to work after school every day at the kitchen table under my supervision. She has agreed to do this. We have agreed that if she does enough during the week she may not have to do any homework at weekends and can do what she likes.

I will make sure that yummy snacks are part of the homework experience, and make sure the other 2 dc's are occupied elsewhere so dd and I have a bit of time to ourselves after school.

She needs supervision with her homework. She needs help organising herself. I have promised that if she concentrates on school work - something she clearly finds a struggle - I will take care of other organisational aspects of her life (making sure her bag is properly packed for school, uniform ready, bedroom tidy) until she starts to find it all a bit easier. She appreciates this.

Great news SF - it sounds like she is willing to take the first step to changing things.

Wow OP that reply to Lucy was a bit defensive. She made some fair comments. You have got your daughter to agree to what you want, does that mean that everything has changed? She will only be able to work if she wants to do it for herself. You can't make her work, but you can make her want to work.

"She made some fair comments"

What - comparing me to her mother who was impossible to please? Who was 'incredibly controlling'. Who has psychologically damaged her children for life?

In what sense is wanting your child to do the homework they've been set, fill out their homework diary, get up on time for school, have a hobby, and adhere to basic school rules being ridiculously demanding?

"She will only be able to work if she wants to do it for herself"

Actually I think most children accept that sometimes they have to do things they find a bit boring or that they don't feel like doing at that moment. My 9 year old does half an hours piano practice most days even though he often drags his heels a bit. But when he starts he enjoys it, he feels good for doing it afterwards and has a sense of achievement from the progress he's made.

DD is behaving like a toddler at the moment. She doesn't want to do what she doesn't want to do. And she won't do what she doesn't want to do. I appreciate that this is a battle teenagers go through because their brains are changing and they are awash with hormones - the toddler at war with the growing realisation that adulthood involves becoming self-disciplined, and taking responsibility for themselves. Separating from us. Which is scary and she doesn't want to do it. I know there is a lot of push and pull going on in her head.

Unfortunately at the moment the toddler side of herself is in control. Has been for about 18 months now.

It would be nice to think that she could discover the benefits of trying hard for herself, and that would make her want to do it. But she won't put her foot on that first rung of the ladder.