Wilsons, Wallington, Tiffin, Sutton – why so many applications? Are parents kidding themselves?

[TheWomanOnTheBus]

I went to the Wilsons open day last night, and in relation to admissions the Head at his talk said basically the following:

Yes, there are 1400 applicants. And yes Wilsons have 150 places. However, the chances of entereing is not as bad as that sounds since each of those 1400 applicants is also likely to apply for all the Sutton grammars and also Tiffin. (And some will no doubt also be applying to/preferring indies - my point not his). In total, throughout those 4 schools there are 510 places. He encouraged anyone to apply whose DS was likely to get a good 5 in KS2 (ie 5a and 5b).

Now it is true that some DSs will have a bad day. But if they take 4 tests, and they were at the level the Head said they need to be to get in, then the chances of them having a bad day (if they are at the right level) at all of them is minimal.

So are 900 or so of the parents kidding themselves (nowhere near predicted to get "good 5")? Are their DSs nowhere near that level and they are applying anyway? That many?

Or is the Head being disingenuous and in fact you need DSs at a much higher level?

IYSWIM.

You seem to have a lot of insight and inside info into 11+ exams Tiggy. Do you set the exams or are you a tutor ?

Its the dc I really feel for Tiggy. I know 2 boys who sat the Tiffin exam last year and IMO the more brilliant one didn't get in despite coaching. The other boy was very clever but had been tutored to the zenith ( tutors for 2 yrs, 3- 4 hours practice weekly, 5 hrs pratice/ day during summer hols of yr 5) and looked it. I really do feel this grammar madness is because most comps don't focus much of the attention on the very able, prefering to push the borderline D/Cs to augment the league tables. This leaves parents feeling that if their dc are not in a grammar they won't reach their full potential.[ sad]

Tiggy do you have any idea how many dc are in each class in these superselective grammars. I've heard due to place ties/ appeals etc a lot of grammars are now having up to 33 in each class which surely impact on dc's education.

don't know about Tiffin but there are 33 in the extension stream at Graveney - they can barely fit in the form room - god knows what it's going to be like when they're all hulking Year 11s rather than little Year 7s ...

My DS got a place at one of the schools mentioned in the title. There are 20 boys in each class.

There is no secret to the Tiffin test.

It is multiple choice set by GL assessment. This means there are 21 different types of verbal reasoning question and 6 different types of non-verbal reasoning question to practice. Exam technique including speed and accuracy is essential. Practising relevant and difficult materials is also essential, eg GL Assessment, Walsh, etc.

Throwing money at a specialist tiffin tutor is not necessarily the best solution, as I learnt from personal experience. Far better to guide your child yourself if you are that keen on getting a place at one of the Tiffin schools. It's all about using your and your child's time effectively. A couple of sessions a week for 9 months is ample time to prepare.

Tiggy,

RE the class sizes at grammars... I can only speak for TGS. Yes they are in forms of 30 to begin with. As with other schools there are smaller groups for those needing more help in maths and in the GCSE option classes later on. In my younger DD's comp the top stream are taught in classes of 30 up to GCSE with much smaller classes for those struggling or with EAL.

My DD came from a very small independent where they were taught in classes of about 12-15. She much preferred the bigger classes at Tiffin Girls. I have never heard parents complain about it as it is pretty much the norm at state schools; if parents really don't know they haven't done their homework! I certainly don't think it impairs their learning. All the girls are clever and they move at a fast pace above and beyond the national curriculum.

It was similar at my own grammar school 30 years ago - forms of 30 or 31 and then split into smaller option groups later on.

When I went to grammar school, many years ago, the classes were 30-31, but split into 20s for things like art and science.

Frankly, I wish they would stop publishing league tables - at least based on exams grades. I think this is one of the reasons why people are so desperate to get their kids into these schools. The elevenplusexams website is quite frightening - preparing for 2 or 3 years - it has become an arms race.

Tiffin Girls' is a lovely school - but at the end of the day it is just a school. There are a lot of good schools. I feel some parents think it is the Holy Grail of education and their daughters will come off the conveyor belt in 7 years time straight to Oxbridge of Med School. I think academic girls would do well at any school.

In our case, after months of debating, comparing, asking ourselves "do we really like these schools? or are we just buying into the mass hysteria?" we have reached the conclusion that we only like Wilsons. (And so does DS). Which means we can drop VR and NVR during the summer and concentrate on maths and english. I have no words to express the relief I feel about this!!! I am stopping to put my child through hours of learning something that is useless other than for passing the 11 plus. IMO all schools should be testing DCs on what they have learnt in the classroom.

DS attends a state primary which gave no help to the grammar-school aspirant cohort. Ironically DS obviously upped his game with the inclusion of VR/NVR in some of the 11+ papers. He didn't get into Wilson's, whereas he got offers at the other two, and I'm sure that was entirely down to the fact that his English is relatively weak and the NVR/VR boosted his marks.

But I personally don't think NVR/VR can necessarily be taught easily - it's not without good reason that they form the basis of IQ tests

Aren't VR and NVR in IQ tests because they would not normally have been taught? Well not until they appeared in entrance exams, that is.

The general consensus was that you can improve a "natural" score by upto 20% with tutoring for these subjects.

Absolutely. Hence a booming tutoring industry.

11PlusAdvisor Throwing money at a specialist tiffin tutor is not necessarily the best solution, as I learnt from personal experience.

Just wondering if you would expand on this. not being particularly local, and so no access to any word-off-mouth or recommendations on specialist tutors, I am planning to do it myself (as you say).

What was your personal experience? Do you agree with the other strong sentiment expressed here that a (specialist?) tutor can boost the results by 20% (as per Hardboiled's post just now). I am inclined to think a DIY route - doing lots of practice, timed tests, and so on - should be enough (assuming you have the time of course).

TheWomanOnTheBus - my personal experience of sending my child to tiffin tutor went something like this: child goes for one and half hour session in group of 8; sits timed paper; swaps paper with another child to mark; goes over corrections (mainly by himself). However, in my child's case, there were so many corrections and not enough time to go over them (he hadn't done any previous practice on VR and NVR). From speaking with fellow Mums in the area, this seems to be a very common scenario, although I accept some tutors do offer a bit more guidance.
I removed my child from these sessions after 5 weeks and £125 wasted pounds later. Neither child nor parent were any the wiser - and I later came to realise the practice papers he was given were so ancient and not relevant to the current tiffin test.
The key to success - research the test type (in case of Tiffins it is multiple choice set by GL assessment, not Bond or anyone else) and prepare your child specifically for that test; go through a method and technique course for each different question type; sit timed tests; pinpoint weaknesses and practice those question types; use plenty of incentives to encourage child to increase speed and accuracy. Sit a couple of mock tests to get a feel for the exam experience.
Following that sort of process, scores will increase dramatically (no specialist tutor required). But anyone doing that for 2 years is crazy ? 9 months is quite enough and will prevent boredom setting in.
I wish you luck with your preparations.

The 11+ industry I mentioned includes DIY too! In the form of books, more books, CDs, websites, apps, mocks...
And chill pills for the parents.

Thanks, 11PlusAdvisor, that all makes sense.

I went along to the Tiffin Open Evening last night and there were tutoring firms giving out leaflets outside the school gate on the way in.

The Head in her talk simply said: absolutely no need to tutor, ignore all those people outside (the are simply businesses trying to drum up businesss). She did say that all you should do is familiarise the DS with the exams over a period of weeks (I think she said 7 - but that sounds a little too precise :-)).

I must say, reading all the above, and other threads, I tend to agree that for us that will be the correct approach. The tutoring industry - to me - seems to pander to the fears off the parents, sites like this (posters like me that participate in this), all give rise to an incredible vicious circle of "if they do it, and my DS does not, then mine will be at a disadvantage".

The truth is no one can really know. It needs a properly controlled statistical study!

Yes, posters will say - X was so bright wasn't tutored and didn't get in. And Y was not so bright, was tutored and did. But this anectodal stuff is not really evidence. (X may not have been as bright as was imagined, might have had a fit of nerves - absent which he may have sailed in.)

I would have thought the heads of these schools would know whether or not it makes a difference. That sits nicely with my insinct and with what the head says.

Of course it could be that the Head was lieing and she knows all along that tutoring makes signficant differences!