Wilsons, Wallington, Tiffin, Sutton – why so many applications? Are parents kidding themselves?

[TheWomanOnTheBus]

I went to the Wilsons open day last night, and in relation to admissions the Head at his talk said basically the following:

Yes, there are 1400 applicants. And yes Wilsons have 150 places. However, the chances of entereing is not as bad as that sounds since each of those 1400 applicants is also likely to apply for all the Sutton grammars and also Tiffin. (And some will no doubt also be applying to/preferring indies - my point not his). In total, throughout those 4 schools there are 510 places. He encouraged anyone to apply whose DS was likely to get a good 5 in KS2 (ie 5a and 5b).

Now it is true that some DSs will have a bad day. But if they take 4 tests, and they were at the level the Head said they need to be to get in, then the chances of them having a bad day (if they are at the right level) at all of them is minimal.

So are 900 or so of the parents kidding themselves (nowhere near predicted to get "good 5")? Are their DSs nowhere near that level and they are applying anyway? That many?

Or is the Head being disingenuous and in fact you need DSs at a much higher level?

IYSWIM.

DS passed the three Sutton Grammar School 11+ exams, got an offer at one on Offers Day, missed out on his second choice because of the distance criteria used for the boys scoring the cut-off mark but then was offered a place at that school a couple of weeks down the line. We weren't ever told how many boys had scored the same mark as DS but he lost out because we live out of Borough and obviously further away than boys with the same score. He was 9th on the waiting list on Offers Day so would anticipate that at least ten boys had got the cut off score but it could have been considerably higher.

Apparently Tiffin does offer places to all the boys with the same score - look at the 11+ Forum for more information. And by some miracle the parents seem to know exactly how many children scored each mark! Not sure the other schools are so transparent about their results but maybe the parents don't ask the salient questions.

For whatever reason Tiffin does seem to be regarded as the most sought after grammar school in the Surrey/Kingston area - I'm not totally sure why!

What would be interesting for Sutton Borough to collate would be a venn diagram showing the overlap of boys passing all three, numbers passing one or two or none.

On the basis of DS's classmates results with the grammar schools, eight took at least some of the four local 11+ exams, two passed at least three (DS only took three but his classmate took and passed four), two failed by a narrow margin (but got into one of the local partially selective comprehensives) and the other four failed by more than five points.

Also, not all of the 1400 will be applying to all the four schools.
We might apply to Tiffin say for transport reasons from Clapham, but not the other three.

I'd be interested to know how many unique applicants there are for all those four schools.

Any info anyone ?

Not sure how you would come by that information? The Registrar at Sutton Grammar used to be most helpful but she's gone onto pastures new at Graveney. Not sure whether anyone in the Education Department at Sutton Borough Council would furnish you with the relevant information? Might be worth a try?

But I would guess more than a handful. Know that a few of DS's classmates only sat Tiffin and a couple did Sutton and Wallington but not the others. If that is representative of patterns at other schools then I could imagine that there could have been tens of unique applicants. Pure guesswork though!

What Tiggy says about the Tiffin exam is very realistic. The tutoring which goes on is unbelievable and nowadays you will not get in if you weren't very able and tutored to the zenith.

My impression (very anecdotal) is that the children who live locally and who have a good chance will have a go at several. For those trying from further away, I suspect more than a handful will just go for one - because it is a long shot, a long journey, that particular one is on the right train line, near a parent's workplace, there are other local options, etc. It depends how easy it is to fill your CAF though.

I agree about tutoring - the line that they won't cope when they get in there just doesn't stack up for the superselective schools (the same applies to the Graveney test). Not only is there no room for error, there is no room for sneezing, scratching your head, wondering why the boy in the seat next door has green ears, nothing.

Most children are not born with those powers of concentration; and I suspect most who can score reasonably well on those tests first go would do just fine at those schools, but they are unlikely to get in without practice. It can be easier to get the practice in with a tutor.

OP, I would have a bash, so then you know, unless either you or your son are of a particularly sensitive disposition!

On tutoring ......

gazzalw - By ?pass? did you mean actually offered a place, rather than the preliminary artificial step of being told you ?passed the test? before the CAF is filled in? If any case, out of the DS classmates you mention: any view as to whether they were all the same quality and whether proper tutoring (and at what type of intensity) made a material difference?

mumzy for these schools? does it really matter that you get, say, a ?Tiffin specialist?. Or will any good general tutor do the trick. If you have to get a school specialist and you apply for a handful, it might be expensive and rather intense. :) I read the 11* forum pages on Tiffin and it scares the hell out of me. Do I need to turn into that sort of obsessive mum with ?category cards? (whatever they are) and strict regimes of two test practices a day and so on. (If I did have to, its too late now anyway.) I was assuming that that sort of stuff is just too extreme - and repeating myself - the end product of a tutorial/practice arms race of obsessiveness. But given what people say on this thread perhaps not - perhaps I do need to do all that.

I suppose more generally, does it need to be a commercial tutor or what people are really saying is that you can?t just rely on the primary to get them ready ? you need to do practice papers at home (which we are doing). DS is comfortably finishing them on time with minimal errors. I was somehow hoping that would be enough. (Obviously these are not the Wilson?s tests ? since they don?t publish samples ? but Bond papers and papers downloaded from other schools.)

I guess that?s why I took comfort from the heads talk. DS is bright, but not by any means the only bright DS in his cohort and whilst he might be in the top 2 or 3, they are not that far ahead of everyone else. I suppose he?s then in the goldilocks zone that Greythorne / tiggy describes. And I was assuming that everyone at his level (predicted 5a/5b at KS2 ? certainly not predicted 6) would be able to do those papers to the same sort of level. Do I need to then go beyond just practicing papers at home and getting a specialist tutor?

TwoTerrors - thanks, I will probably give it a go. I have no confidence I?d find an appropriate tutor in time if that is what the consensus is. We are not local to the schools ? so wouldn?t even know where to start. But perhaps I will start asking around. If anyone knows an appropriate tutor in the Battersea/Clapham area, then do let me know by PM or by posting.

One other point. The Head did emphasise that there was no need to tutor (all stuff was in national curriculum). Indeed, he said they dropped the VR (or was it NVR) precisely because it was skewed towards people

Is he just wrong? Or mischievous? Or what? I suppose hehad no choice really but to say that. He can't very well say: don't apply unless either DS is a genius or you can afford a tutor. But then why did they drop the reasoning paper if he didn't really believe what he said?

Womanonthebus,

Don't panic yet!

I'm no expert on this, but the one thing I would strongly recommend is practice timing, timing, and more timing. The Tiffin test (particulary NVR) is very very difficult to complete in 50 minutes and that's what seems to trip many children up. There's no point in getting the first 65 questions right and then having to guess the last 15 because you've run out of time.

Most tutors won't do anything that you can't do at home, but the one advantage I think that some provide (particularly when it is group tutoring) is that the children will sit many, many timed tests surrounded by other children all doing the same thing. This is invaluable experience. Has your DS sat the sutton mock? Again, invaluable experience.

I actually think most children don't sit all four exams. Our closest school is Tiffins (10 min bus ride away) but very very few local children sit the exam. Most parents don't think it's worth the effort as they think their children won't get in or they have just heard it's extremely pressured once you're in and they don't want that for their children. Of the very few who do sit the Tiffin test, a very low percentage of them will sit for Sutton Grammar as well but a negligible number will sit for Wallingtons and the same for Wilsons. It's just too far a slog across two boroughs.

Sutton and Tiffins are pretty accessible on the train, but Wallington and Wilsons less so and so I think this naturally prevents many children applying.

The other thing I've learnt (this is my third time through this horrendous process) is that it's such a lottery and the children you would put money on getting a place frequently don't.

Good luck to all our DC for the months ahead

I agree about practice. As for tutoring, I am not sure it helps for VR/NVR IF he can get minimal errors to time and IF you can help him (there are apparently youtube vids and loads more stuff online). If that will mean rows, I'd get a tutor. Maths and English may be a bit different, and more actual teaching may help. It is all very well to say there is nothing not on the NC, but my children never got anything like enough practice at writing crisp, timed stories at school. they did endless faffing and redrafting. And clearly with maths i you have been taught to L6, you will find bits of the L5 stuff much easier - and therefore quicker. But you could possibly do that.

FWIW, both my children were 5a/5b poss level 6 in one subject each by the end of year 6. Neither could ace the VR/NVR style tests. Others who did less well in class could. They probably didn't practice enough but I think there is a knack to filling in those boxes quickly and accurately enough.

If he can get the right boxes ticked to time - go for it!

Not in your area, in Essex. DD1 took the 11plus in the hope of one of two super selective. We had an English, maths and VR paper. We had her tutored for 18 months, determined to not be the type of parent that tutors and does bond books every evening. Oh how I wish we had!!!
I know of several kids who did secure a place by doing this who were not as 'naturally bright' as DD.
If you go this route, please do not believe the parents/teachers who say tutoring and practice not necessary. It so obviously is. And also importantly is your child's attitude.
Our DD did not get a place although previous years she would have got in with her score. But I do not, and cannot regret what it taught my DD who was so complacent of her ability. There are always kids who work harder and are pushed further and they are the ones who get a place.
You are competing against other kids, not a 'pass' or 'fail' mark. Your DC has to be more committed and work harder than all those other kids.

Well DS passed all three 11+ exam papers and was offered two of the three Grammar Schools on/shortly after Offers Day - he might have been offered the third but we decided to take him off the waiting list because we wanted him to have the certainty of knowing and preparing for a school with lots of notice.

DS was not tutored although we did practice papers with him in the lead up to the exams. His classmate who passed all four (and he got into Wilson's although way down the waiting list for Tiffin) was tutored but is very clever so not entirely sure it was necessary. One who is very similar in ability to DS failed by a few marks for all the ones he took. To be quite honest I would say they were the three brightest boys in the class and although the others are quite clever not sure that any of us were surprised that they hadn't passed.

Two girls also passed; one got a place at a grammar school and another at a very sought after SW London comprehensive (in the selective stream). The one who got into GS was someone who was always on the middle table until Year 6 but she was heavily tutored from Year 4 methinks. The other one is naturally an excellent all-rounder but curiously she passed one 11+ (but didn't get a place) and failed Nonsuch by a couple of marks.

I have said this on another thread but I think DS is very quick and this is what ultimately made the difference twixt him and the boys who failed. DS finished all his papers whereas many of his classmates did not.

Agreed that practice, practice, practice seems to make sense with focus on getting DS to answer all questions in time alotted.

I'm also interested in "tutoring strategies".

Not sure whether to just do practice papers on my own, or whether to get in a specialist tutor.

The trouble IMO seems to be that if you are going for a range of schools (like OP the four mentioned) plus Graveney plus an Indie or two or three as a back-up, then what tutor do you get. The received wisdom on the 11plus forum seems to be that you ened someone who knows the Tiffin test to make it worthwhile. Is that the same for the other selective schools?

Anyone got any views on this?

Sorry I can't really help as we didn't use one. All I can say though is that the two in DS's class who were tutored for Tiffin got into other grammar schools but both were way down the ranked order for the Tiffin schools. So I think you need to decide at this stage whether you are going all out for Tiffin (which seems to require a slightly different approach), or take a more comprehensive approach to the 11+ which might stand you in better stead for the other grammar schools, Graveney and possibly the indies (but DS didn't do indie school exams so again can't really pass judgement on that side of things).

I don't think that Tiffin is necessarily more difficult to get into (have heard of boys who have failed all the other 11+ exams but passed Tiffin) but just a different type of test.

Sorry not sure that that is much help. Maybe you need to consider your DS's strengths in considering which one(s) to go for.

DS did five selective school exams and I think that was enough. DS likes tests/exams and is quite cool, calm and collected in such situations but even he started to get fed up with doing the tests. Only you know your child but if they are prone to nerves/stress you really need to consider how many bites at the cherry will be acceptable/doable for them.

Good luck - very glad to have this all behind us for a few years ;-)

hi.i am very confused about the headmaster talk at wilsons...my son is a 5a in english and maths but it seems i have to have him tutored so does anyone know of a tutor in the croydon area?

my ds (who is at one of these schools) was tutored because i'm a sheep - even though we know he is v bright, we felt he might as well have every advantage going. he was very grumpy about it (but no biggy, one hour a week for about 11 months) i subsequently wondered whether it had been unnecessary and asked him what he thought. i was very surprised that he said it was absolutely essential, he would never have known all the tricks of the trade without it.

Well maybe that's why our son didn't get into Wilson's, although I think that was the exam that didn't include any VR/NVR!

Personally I think you pick up the tricks as you go along - going through them with your child, although we didn't ever get to grips with those wretched cubes!

I actually thought the Heads reiterated that all the work is covered in the National Curriculum and they wouldn't be tested on anything that they shouldn't already be able to do - I thought that was the whole point. They seemed to be saying that children shouldn't be tutored!

MrsCornish what school was that for, Wilson's?

Yes, gazzalw that is precisely what the Head was saying. No need to tutor, all Year 5 NC stuff. But it seems as if he is being a little economical with the truth.

From his point of view he has to say that. He can't just say, you need to tutor otherwise you ahve no chance - since that is tantamount to endorsing this circle of competiveness which all goes on and we are all joining in with. And also be in effect saying to those that can't afford it - don't apply - a big no, no of course.

He can't just be silent on the topic - since he would then be asked by everyone who visited the school.

So he is left with telling a big little lie. Don't want to pick on him though, they are all the same. The indies don't have this problem since they can interview and spot potential. (Am not endorsing interviews for state selection though since that has problems of its own of course.)

I do though think that he could do something to stop the tutoring. Here's a thought: just have pass/fail at an appropriate "grammar material" level and then either select by distance (not for me since I'm too far!) or just lottery amongst the brightest. The latter is best from fairness (as well as suiting me) since otherwise you'd get a renting/buying in catchment problem. [Of course the tutoring industry would be anti-this.] But when I read in another thread of kids going off to "tutoring centres" at weekend (I've never even heard of them) - I do think things have got (just a little) out of hand.

So I do think its a little rich for this school and the others to say "don't tutor" when they know many/most do and when they can easily do something to prevent it.

You are right of course - what they should do is have the type of generated for the year exam papers that Eton and the other top public schools have - which change year on year and would keep everyone second guessing. Only trouble is that they cost a bomb!

It would be interesting to note if there is actually a correlation between 11+ pass mark achieved and final educational outcomes at 16, 18 and 21 (or whenever higher education ends). I am sure I have read somewhere (but can't think where) that it does not necessarily follow that the ones who get top marks in the 11+ exams will do the best at particular secondary school milestones. Perhaps this is because a lot of those pupils are the ones who have been tutored to within an inch of their lives?

As I have said there was quite marked disgruntlement amongst some of the parents in Year 6 that one of the girls (who was tutored extensively but wasn't anywhere near top table material in previous years), did well enough in the 11+ exams to get a place at one of the girls' super-selectives. Whereas the generally very good all-rounder who did papers with her father didn't do well enough to get a place at a grammar school, although she did very, very well in the Wandsworth Test and got a selective place at Graveney.

I don't know what the solution is but the whole thing sits rather uncomfortably with me even though DS did well enough (on his own merit without a tutor) to get a place. But who knows, if he'd had a tutor maybe he would have got into his first choice?

I'm still curious to know what is different about the Tiffin test.

Tiffin test is said to be VR/NVR but then so is the Wandworth test for Graveney. So why different?

Is it different because its VR/NVR - when Wilsons Wallington are Maths and English - or is it that the form of the VR/NVR isvery different from the standard (ie what you can pick up by looking at the Bond books). If the latter, i'd relax a little as I'm sure I can help my DS get up to the correct speed on those.

Anyone know how to find out what its all about. I have tried looking at the 11+ forum and I can't really get to the bottom of it on that.

I think the Tiffin boys test is very similar to the Graveney one, although I don't know anyone who has done both, for a direct comparison. I believe at tiffin that in order to distinguish the top 140 scores, they include more questions than you can possibly hope to answer in the time. So no matter how fast you are, you won't run out. Otherwise you'd get too much clumping of results. DS didn't finish but got in last year. His was one of the lower pass marks but his own assessment of his level within the class now is that he's mid-top range. Without prompting (tho he knows some boys have done years of tutoring) he has said that you can tell who has been trained to get in, and who is just 'naturally' capable. I don't feel there is too much academic pressure - he's very happy, enjoys all his homework, gets similar amounts to friends elsewhere, although i sense that the 'level' is a bit more ambitious. The main pressure he is aware of is to be in the right place at the right time with the right stuff, and to toe the line, which is just what you want at this age. i like the massive mix of backgrounds and the 'its ok but not essential to be clever' atmosphere.

I know nothing about Tiffin, but ASFAIK, Graveney uses tests similar to the NFER ones (see here www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/advice/gl-assessment-nfer-and-letts/).

There are very limited practice papers of this type available, so people use the Bond and others. As far as I remember, Bond were the most different - probably still useful though. But I would search around and do a range if it is not possible to find out what type the schools you are interested in do, as they vary quite a lot.

Good luck

To answer the original question, yes I do think a lot of parents are kidding themselves - and this particularly applies to parents living very near to any one of these schools. My kids attend/attended a primary school near to Tiffin and in past years, half the yr 6 class has taken the Tiffin exam - there's no way that half the class are Tiffin material! Over the past couple of years, as local secondaries have got better, less and less children (or parents) have chosen to take Tiffin - but still there are always children who are never realistically going to get in.