Wilsons, Wallington, Tiffin, Sutton – why so many applications? Are parents kidding themselves?

[TheWomanOnTheBus]

I went to the Wilsons open day last night, and in relation to admissions the Head at his talk said basically the following:

Yes, there are 1400 applicants. And yes Wilsons have 150 places. However, the chances of entereing is not as bad as that sounds since each of those 1400 applicants is also likely to apply for all the Sutton grammars and also Tiffin. (And some will no doubt also be applying to/preferring indies - my point not his). In total, throughout those 4 schools there are 510 places. He encouraged anyone to apply whose DS was likely to get a good 5 in KS2 (ie 5a and 5b).

Now it is true that some DSs will have a bad day. But if they take 4 tests, and they were at the level the Head said they need to be to get in, then the chances of them having a bad day (if they are at the right level) at all of them is minimal.

So are 900 or so of the parents kidding themselves (nowhere near predicted to get "good 5")? Are their DSs nowhere near that level and they are applying anyway? That many?

Or is the Head being disingenuous and in fact you need DSs at a much higher level?

IYSWIM.

I would agree with you stillfeel18inside. Some of DS's classmates weren't ever going to pass the 11+ exams and some randomly did the Tiffin Test who really had no chance but I guess a lot of parents think it's worth a shot....

I think that the Tiffin Test is significantly different to the type of VR/NVR questions in the Bond Books which is why it's such an anomalous exam.

Thanks gazzalw
But how is the Tiffin test different from the Bond tests?

That I do no know but I've just heard that it is totally different. DS has just informed me that the VR/NVR exam for Graveney (and that seems to be the closest comparison there is) was different from the VR/NVR components of the Wilson's/Wallington/Sutton Grammar 11+ exams.

Sorry, not being obtuse on purpose' but a year of studying the 11+ Forum definitely gave me the impression that the Tiffin exams are markedly different and that seems to be corroborated by what's been written on Mumsnet on various threads.

The problem is that the exams are not 'out there' for parents to peruse at great length and in great depth and so it is all a bit of a leap into the great unknown.

If you compare the Bond papers with the GL papers (link lower down), you will see they are different, and can pore over how!

Other practice materials are more similar, but often with different question types too. From what I remember, children said the Graveney test was the same format as eg the banding tests use by other schools, but just harder, and that it was very similar to the GL papers.

I have no idea about Tiffin but I don't think you will find a definite answer for the other schools - they have decided what they will release, which is often not much, and that is that. I think they claim that this creates a level playing field because no one can prepare - they are wrong I think.

I would start practising a range of different types, and remember that is all anyone else can do, and that the skills are often transferable.

The area you are speaking about op, creams off the top whatever percent of kids academically, which means that the local comprehensives arent all that representative of the local population. If sitting five tests and perhaps doing bad at four of them is the option between paying out 15k a year for five years, before even taking university into account, then yes. parents can be as pushy deluded as they like because it makes fiscal sense
.
Also, dont forget, that house prices in this area reflect not only london, but also these very schools. I live very close to nonsuch girls school, and despite the fact that we had only boys, and werent event thinking about it, our house cost a lot more because of its proximity to the school. dd who was born after we moved here will be sitting the test because there isnt really much other option.

Thanks, again, gazzawl

TwoTerrors - sorry, you mention a link further down - but I can't see one!

LadySybil - agreed it makes fiscal sense. But also thought that locally the "comprehensives" remained comprehensive since its only such a small number that are creamed off and then many of the kids for these grammars come not from a local area at all. (Very different from Kent, etc.)

I would agree tiggy that an increasing number of parents local to Tiffin are opting out of the process and using the excellent local comps instead. Certainly for girls, the provision for boys is less good.

DD is what most would see as classic Tiffin material but I decided against going for the test because of the intense pressure involved and my uneasiness about the kind of atmosphere that could be engendered in the school due to the effect on DCs of all those years of pressure. When I saw the standards being reached in the top stream of local girls comp i could not see any reason to go through all the stress to gain a place in a school I had an uneasy feeling that DD could be miserable in.

In several areas the provision at the comp seems much better than at Tiffin especially in languages which DD loves, so for us Tiffin would have been a definite second choice.

As DD spends most of her classroom time with others in top stream (generally level 5 SATs across the board) I can't really see what a grammar school environment would gain for her.

Yes, I think we fall into the category of 1 hour journey (well hopefully only 45 on a good day) since the local comp in Lambeth is not good enough. Not being willing to move we need to go for the selectives to avoid the catchment school.

I think I know enough from following this thread and others that all entrants are high achieving DSs and its likely to be a long-shot for ours.

(Our fall-back - if fail at the GS and Graveneys - is going to be one of the indies - with much easier entry criteria.)

Tiggy - DD tells me that 4 or 5 of her classmates have told her they put Tiffin as a second choice in case they fell outside the very small catchment area of the comp. Interesting phenomenon.

Personally I think that this is happening as Tiffin is getting a bit complacent and the comp (I will name it - Coombe Girls - fab school!) has been putting a lot of effort into competing directly with them. It seems to be working. From info on the websites it would seem that Coombe girls has much better provision in several areas and the value added is much better.

Tiffin is now a school mainly filled with DCs who travel from far afield with local DCs being very low in number. Another downside for local parents who want their DCs to have classmates who live within a reasonable distance.

I feel for you OhDear - it really is a shame you are being made to jump through these hoops to get a decent school for your DS.

HI OP, my message of yesterday at 10.30 has the link (in plaintext, you will have to cut and paste).

Ahhh, not at 10.30!

www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/advice/gl-assessment-nfer-and-letts/

I have just received some GL pass papers (VR and NVR) for DS to practice on. So here goes. Fingers crossed not too late to start all this. And fingers crossed they are somewhat like the Tiffin's test. (Although, TBH, from an initial flick through they don't seem too different from the Bond papers we were doing....)

Good luck and hope all goes well for your DC!

I know someone who has got their ds into Tiffin this year and can confirm the exam is very different from any other 11+ exam I've seen. There is nothing currently out on the market which would adequately prepare dc for it because the school wants the exam to be untutorable. However the irony is the only way you will get an idea what it looks like is by going to a tutor who specialises in the Tiffin exam. I can only equate it to the type of code breaking exercises used by m16 to recruit potential spies. One Poster Tiggytape describes the Tiffin test very well and gives a realistic picture of the process. Please do not ask me to recommend tutors as I'm totally against the Tiffin test because Imo it is the most unfair 11+ exam out there. I'm also totally at what the tutors and parents put their dc through to pass Tiffin. I think the school needs to seriously rethink the test for the good of its pupils.

Sorry Tiggy didn't realise you where already on the thread

I don't think the Tiffin results are that much better than the other local(ish) super-selectives to warrant that level of tutoring, do you?

Carrots

My DD who is currently in year 11 at TGS finds the majority of her classmates are from the local area.

I really don't find that TGS is complacent and the newish Head, Mrs Ward, is fantastic and has made some welcome changes. I don't think the school perceives itself as competing with Coombe or any other school, just providing a good experience for the girls who are there. Re languages, everyone does French, Latin and Spanish (also an opportunity for ancient Greek) and can do GCSEs in all three if desired.

DD has never found the school particularly pressurised. All the girls are capable of getting at least an A in each subject but they are not machines. There are some with pushy parents, wannabe doctors etc, but on the other hand, there are quite a few girls in this years year 11 cohort who are not particularlly interested in getting A or A*, concentrate on thier social lives and are as lazy as hell. I expect the results will be down this year!

Thanks, Mumzy.

I can't see the tiggyTape post you referred to as describing the test very well - is it in this thread? Or elsewhere. Could you (or she!) send a link to it or point me to where it is. Perhaps I'm being a little dense.

I would agree with tiggytape - the difficulty with the Tiffin test is all in the timing.

The VR is really not that different from the GL Assessment papers you can buy in the shops, though the odd word may be more obscure and the overall level slightly harder. I think the Walsh papers have harder vocabulary than the real thing (so if you can do those, you should be fine!) and, in fact, the Walshes don't use their own papers for their tutor groups.

I think the real difference lies in the difficulty of finishing the NVR in 50 minutes (as I've said before.) It is extremely common for DC to come out of the test having guessed the last 5-10 questions because they ran out of time. There doesn't appear to be the same problem with the VR

My DS didn't do Tiffin because of location, and reading this thread, I'm glad he didn't. But to reassure the OP, the Wilson's and Sutton tests were much closer to school work and he is now going to Wilson's without ever having been an ace at NVR; it's based on Maths and English, and he came out of the test saying he recognised the questions because they were like school and the ones he's done with a primary school teacher who did some tutoring with him. He was level 5 maths and level 4 (can't remember the letter) end year 5, if that helps.

This post by Tiggytape on another thread was particularly enlightening and show how the Tiffin test is very unfair for equally bright kids who've not had the benefit of being tutored by Tutors who are familiar with the format.

If you consider over 1500 pupils take the Tiffins test (all of whom will be a level 5 minimum or most likely a level 6 SATS in all subjects) you can see this isn't a test to see who is clever enough and who isn't. It is a test that takes 1500 kids (of whom at least 1000 will be exceptionally gifted and easily clever enough to excel at Grammar school) and whittles them down to the last 150 men standing. There are children who take the test who achieve level 6 in all their SATS who don't get a place. With 10 - 12 applicants per place, getting just one question wrong or being a fraction too slow is the difference between getting a place and not getting one. This is where tutoring comes in - speed and accuracy as well as short cuts and familiarity might gain you 3 extra marks on your paper and that makes all the difference. Once upon a time (and still today in some areas) the 11+ sorted children who were clever and would benefit from a grammar school education from those who would not be suited to it.Nowadays most people do not take the 11+ exams and the test just acts to assess which of the 1000+ exceptionally bright children who apply should be chosen.

Tiffin says its test is untutorable but clearly its not and a few tutors make a very lucrative business out of this.