Why do the best teachers teach...

[Frog253]

...the top sets?

I work in a school, and time and time again I see this anomaly and wonder how such things are decided? Surely the HOD / Assistant Heads, Deputy heads and experienced teachers should be teaching the more challenging pupils because teaching is what they are good at (otherwise they wouldn't have been promoted). Also they are paid more, in my mind it should be for doing some of the more difficult teaching jobs.

I know that the top sets arn't full of angels and low ability sets arn't all little sods but nevertheless the top sets are easier to teach because of their ability and behaviour in general. It would make sense therefore for the newer / less able teachers to teach these sets. In the same way I am sure inexperienced surgeons start with the easier ops while the experienced ones do the more challenging ones (perhaps I got that wrong too?).

Not in my school. The top sets get shared out so each teacher has a spread of abilities.

Not the case in our High School either. Certainly in at least two subjects, the head of department/subject leader seems to teach both top and bottom sets.

Regardless of how good a teacher of nice biddable class they might be, some teachers do seem to manage the crowd control/discipline aspects far better than others; they just have that natural authority. So I suppose a good school would use those skills sensibly - i.e they'd look at qualities other than seniority.

And not all teachers are confident in teaching top sets and they don't want the responsibility of the highest grades for a school.

Timetable often dictates for us. Plus, two words, league tables.
Don't think the best teachers are always promoted either.

Actually the best teachers teach the d/c borderline kids because this makes the biggest difference to the % pass rate (which of course is published and used by parents/ofsted/media to judge the success of the school).

Agree with Crazyday. When I was at school the really good English teacher took the just taking Eng Lang o'level set & got amazing results!

Not in our school!

All teachers move around sets.

It's an interesting question. Maybe it should be made clear what 'the best teacher' actually means.

Does it mean the teacher with the best qualifications in her/his discipline?
Does it mean the teacher with the best exam results?
Does it mean the teacher with the most experience?

There are many different ways of defining a 'good' teacher.

But how classes are allocated is quite a contentious issue, most decent schools that want to retain their staff will maintain a balance.

Top groups should not be seen as a cushy ride, they will need stretching.

Lower end groups may have low expectations put upon them, this should not influence a teacher's resolve to get the best out of each and everyone of them.

I am a maths teacher, and I know that next year I will be teaching our top 10% in terms of ability (16/17 year olds) and also our bottom 10% (15/16 year olds) Both groups will present challenges, I hope I am up to meeting them.

I do know that both groups will have some smashing kids and that I will learn a heck of a lot from them as well.

Not true. In the age live or die by league tables, many heads insist the best teachers are targeted at the E/D bands to get the C grade and increase their % pass-rate. Might mean there are less A* but it's a calculated decision by HTs.

You also have to consider what determines the best teacher - best subject knowledge, best discipline, most entertaining lessons...?

In a good school, in a good dept, then all the teachers are strong.

complex number
I suppose I see the best teachers as the ones with experience who are generally also HOD etc. I see them in action and I think that they are good at their job too BUT they still have a disproportionate number of top sets. As well as a reduced teaching timetable because they have other responsibilities.
I have seen weaker teachers with very full timetables and no 'break' in the week with the smaller top sets for example
So it sounds like it depends on the school but who decides who teaches which group?
Top sets only need a short stretch to an A though don't they whereas low ability sets need a bigger stretch to an A.

Not true. I am a secondary Head of Department and therefore responsible for who teaches which classes. There are lots of things to consider when making the decisions. The primary concern is ensure everyone has a mix of classes ability/behaviour wise as anything else would be unfair and could cause unnecessary stress in what is a stressful job anyway.

GCSE classes are done on a rotation basis. We are an option subject so we have top/ bottom set plus mixed ability. So everyone will have a top set, then a bottom set, then mixed ability.

KS3 is done to ensure a mix of ability and year groups.

I do also bear in mind factorslike behaviour so if there is an issue between one teacher and a group of pupils i will try and avoid them teaching them. Difficult classes behaviour wise are also rotated but not given to members of staff with weaker classroom discipline.

As the most experienced member of my department, next year i have top set 11, bottom 10, mixed 10, top 9, middle and very bottom 8, middle 7.

Deciding who teaches what is a complicated process and essential to get right to ensure happy staff.

OP's experience seems unusual.
I have dcs in 2 diff secondary schools, and friends teaching in numerous secondary schools, and, overwhelmingly, staff get a balance of ability over different year groups.

Smaller top sets, Frog? In every school I have worked in the top set is the largest to allow for smaller bottom sets where pupils need more support/may have more challenging behaviour.
I have always had a range of sets, too.
What sort of school is it?

We always taught a mix of classes so that everyone had a varied timetable in the school I worked in.

In one school, where I did a teaching placement, the head always taught the Higher English class because there was only ever one and noone else had enough experience to do it, she said. How they were supposed to gain that experience I am not sure. Most of the staff were intensely jealous as she let me sit in on her class (although I wasn't allowed to teach them either).

I will agree though that the "top" class is not the best class to get if you are a good teacher. The best class to teach is the second top or border line class as you definitely make a difference there.

Agree, top sets are always the biggest. About 32 for us usually.

Yes, our top sets were huge and the classes with the kids who might struggle were kept smaller.

I am a HoD. This year I taught year 12 AS, top and middle sets in year 11, middle and bottom sets in year 10, middle year 9, plus top and bottom year 7.

You could not stretch our bottom sets to an A...

And our tops sets are bigger.

I have one weak teacher in my department, and I place him very carefully. And yes, we are acting on this, but while we do, he has to have a timetable.

For the most part though, it is balancing things for everyone.

Not in my experience - all teachers teach a balance of ages and abilities (you may, however, follow the same set through GCSE for consistency making it 'look' like you've had 1 top set for 2 years in a row for example). Would agree with Fallen though, weaker teachers are placed more 'strategically' than others.

And as for 'Top sets are easier to teach because of their ability and behaviour in general' - this is a massive generalisation and most definitely not true if students are set correctly (i.e. for ability NOT behaviour). High ability often brings behavioural challenges (e.g. due to boredom/understimulation or possibly even a slightly 'know it all' approach) and bottom sets (where often numbers are fewest) an absolute dream to teach (they seem to appreciate you more).

Would also agree with poster above that sometimes better teachers are placed where they will make the most difference - for most depts that will be middle sets as moving a child from a D/E to a C will make an awful lot more difference to the school's results than moving a top set student from an A to an A in terms of their A-C percentage. Sad to say, but it's true that some results 'count' more than others. (Though hopefully more emphasis on 'value added' for all children means an end to this A*-C obsession).

I allocate classes for my department and I can say without question it is always shared out eveny and rotated.

In september I'm having sets 2 and 5 in Year 7, sets 1 and 4 in Year 8 and sets 2 and 3 in Year 9. (middle school)

While top sets can be lovely - usually extemely well behaved, well motivated and do their homework, so less chasing to do - there are always around 30 pupils with no TA. Our bottom sets have around 12 pupils and 2 TAs, so although they are often less well behaved etc, they can be easier due to the staff to pupil ratio.

Personally, I enjoy teaching sets 2 and 3 because you really feel like you make a difference with them. Top set pupils would probaby do well whomever the had, bottom set pupils sometimes will not acheive very highly no matter how good the teacher is.

I realise these are huge generalisations btw!

We also don't give our top sets to the 'best' teachers. They tend to get the C/D borderline classes as those are actually the groups which need the most experienced and efficient teachers.

Agree with the above poster. You can stick top sets in a cardboard box for two years and they'll still get the grades. Stretching them is also easy, because they are eager to learn and there are generally no behavioural problems.

It's a comprehensive and my children will be going there. I don't want to give much away but you have given me some interesting perspectives.

My observations (over a few years) still stand although they are from one particular faculty where I have the most experience.
When I say 'better teachers' I really mean the various heads who have experience on their side.

How do you know which are the best teachers, and what criteria are you judging them on?

HoD here too, and similar to the others - a range is very important for everyone's sanity.

Oh yes and smaller top sets (small bottom ones as well) and v. big middle sets.

In the secondary schools I taught out all teachers taught all year groups and all ability groups. So no one teacher just got the top groups every year. Complete mix - two different schools btw, one top of league, one failing.