Is everybody happy with their choice of a NON-selective secondary education over a selective one?

[AdventuresWithVoles]

Genuine question.

JJ, I agree with Scummy too .

exotic - We tutored. DCs passed and are thriving and predicted all As for their GCSEs. I'll leave it to MNetters to decide whose advice to follow.

To repeat. I am not saying that all the High school kids start secondary school drifting round in a state of existential gloom because they failed the 11+. I am saying that it is not good for 77% off a cohort to start secondary school with the awareness that they are in a particular school because they did not get enough marks on a test to go to the one that is considered better ( whether it is better or not is immaterial, you have to pass a test to get in, so it will be perceived as better). Surely even you, PooshTun can see that thqtnis not a good psychological place to be?

I posted already about how my son felt. It impacted on him less than some because of our approach- he was aware that we didn't approve of the system, and would not be disappointed inn him whatever happened. But it was, even for him a shitty few weeks. I can only imagine what it must have been like for children whose parents had made a bigger deal of it.

pooshTun, please answer this point

"You still haven't explained how you can allocate school places based on an exam with a pass mark, about which the words pass and fail are used, and yet ensure that the children who don't reach the pass mark somehow don't think at any level that they have failed."

I have found that the grammar school then has to do something with them-remedial English in my experience.
If they tutored and are thriving, which I have no doubt they are (they don't all struggle) then it goes to show the exam is a nonsense and if the other DCs of similar ability had had the same amount of money spent on them then they would be thriving too!

And if you dare to be upset that you failed x amount of years later (a lot in my case) then you 'have a chip on your shoulder'!!
I expected to pass, everyone that knew me expected me to pass-my primary Head expected me to pass. It is upsetting.

Even worse if my parents hadn't just said 'try your best-you can't do more'.

May I interject, as OP, that I can only undersand 5% of what you all are talking about now.
Back to my bottle of cider, at least we understand each other. :)

Have you seen the new proposal from MHHQ?

Apparently they want to introduce a new system to ensure mumsnet is differentiated from other parenting websites. Their preferred options are:

1. an entrance test. The top 20% of passers will be allowed to stay on mumsnet
   or

2. a subscription only site

3. The test is about finding out which site is right for you, so you absolutely should NOT feel upset about the result. If you are in the 80% who don't pass the test you won't be able to be a member of mumsnet but this is in your interests and the interests of all parents in the country because we need to discover the parenting leaders and place them on the correct website (mumsnet). If you fail you can still use netmums and other parenting sites that don't test and they will be better for you because they have more emoticons and people who love prams.

4. Subscription only will exclude some povs, admittedly. But that is the nature of the market, I'm afraid.

Love it scummymummy!

Feminist headteacher? Surely she must wear dungarees, not pluck her eyebrows and sport a 'A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle' badge. Otherwise clearly she isn't a real feminist.

We have no grammars here. I am very glad as it happens or DD would get in and DS1 and almost certainly DS2 wouldn't. For different reasons. All clever kids but not all as clever in the 'right'way.

It's about excellence. Mumsnet is a website of great influence. It promotes changes in political policy and shapes reporting in the media. Some of its posters have the potential to grab the ears of the movers and shakers in power. We can change the world here. But not if we let just anyone post. We do need a system to sort the sheep from the goats, if we are to maintain our reputation. And let's face it, some posters thrive in the specialist environment that is mumsnet and some just don't.

Very, very good,scummymummy.

Fortunately I know of a site which doesn't require an entrance test, or have a subscription fee.

All they ask is that I send them a copy of my baptism certificate. That site is amazing, way better than any other parenting site, IMO. Shame for those who aren't the same religion as me, but hey.

seeker -

I failed the 11+. Most of my friends failed the 11+. It was no big deal. But apparently in your Tiger Mom-ish part Kent your children are stopped in streets by parents of the ones that got into the grammar school who then do a victory dance around those who didn't :o

Your fellow town-ees make your children feel like failures because they failed an exam. You then challenge me to stop them feeling like failures. Answer is simple. Move away from these narrow minded people.

Scummy: I have had two vaginal births. Please spare my pelvic floor

Orm: ho yes, of course. (In truth, she is a fox. I would have a total girl-crush if I weren't already girl-crushing on the cropped-blonde German teacher .)

Somebody has a high opinion of MNetters and their influence :o

pooshTun- have you ever thought how much more interesting life would be if you actually engaged with what people actually said and not what you wish they had said? There's a debate to be had, but it is just impossible to have it because you misquote, misrepresent and exaggerate!

ScrummyMummy - do you have some past papers I can look at?

I don't agree with tutoring but if I revise for 6 months before taking the test I know I could pass and I'm sure I won't struggle once I'm allowed in.

Well, I have an iPad that means I have access to sites that people whodon't have IPads don't. But that's fine, because that sort of person would only keep coal in an IPad if they had one....

seeker - your comments would hurt if it didn't come from someone who thought that mums discussing risotto receipes made MN overwhelmingly middle-class :o

It is a shame, though. This is a really interesting topic- sad that it gets side tracked by the hard of thinking....

... says someone who insist on going on and on about the SM / GS model in their Tiger Mom enclave in Kent

You invented the Tiger Mom thing. I don't know whether you do it because you think it's funny, or whether you get some sort of kick out of taunting people to see if you can make them lose their temper ( I won't by the way). But what you post about what I've said bears absolutely no relation to what I have actually said.

Why not just discuss things properly?

seeker - You paint the town you live in as a place where children that fail the 11+ are stopped by people in the streets who then make patronising remarks because their DCs go in and how the children are made to feel like failures for not passing.

Round where I leave its a case of - your kid didn't pass? Too bad. What do you think of Chelsea's chances this weekend?

So exsqueeze me for seeing your town as a Tiger Mom enclave.

The answer is "no & yes"... a summary of the current state of play: DS is going to the local "non-selective"* comp, not our top ranked choice, but I was very surprised at how much we liked it; very supportive & seems good at pastoral care... good for DT which DS loves & good with 75%+ 5 GCSE passes.

However our 1st choice was a single sex grammar (95% 5 GCSEs) which wowed me & DS (DH not so sold as he went to same type of school). DS would have needed 92%+ to get in... he's top 25% so didn't make it but we felt it was worth a punt. HOWEVER in our area, everyone has to take a maths and VR test (unless they want to go to a community school ie. a genuine comprehensive*). The weekly tuition from mid-Y4 did him the power of good; a wonderful retired HT who has built up a relationship with DS & DS has been able to communicate the areas he hasn't followed in class; the pace of Y5 & Y6 has been dizzying. DCs are more robust than we give them credit for - many of his friends didn't get to the grammar either and they just move on (unlike the DPs who weep into their G&Ts...).

It looks like with his consistent record of working hard all year - I am hoping for Level 5s across the board, he'll have scraped into band A of the comp... not top set (everyone is setted from day 1). I have my fingers crossed. My preference for the selective school was based on the desire for DS to be with educationally enthused boys, the days were longer and so they get more teaching hours, they are taught more subjects and have more in-school opportunities. I am also disheartened by the amount of parental supervision that has been required to date (good state primary) to keep up with where I expect him to be. I was attracted to the slightly more austere working environment at the grammar - they are there to get an education after all.

*comprehensive takes equally at each band (46) but it is oversubscribed after places given to children in care, SEN & siblings, so if you are clever (Band A) - you can live up to 8kms away but if Band C/D you have to live on top of the school. So by being non-selective, it's being selective...

**genuine comprehensive has a "grammar school stream" which does make it seem more attractice - a good marketing strategy for the school anyway.

Not much to say after scummymummy's excellent analogy. Brilliant.