grammar suitability?

[skybluepearl]

We have various secondary schools around us - the good, the bad the ugly! DS is 9 and the thought has just crossed my mind that if we are to even consider our local grammar, then he must start tutoring quite soon. But I don't know if DS is able enough despite being on the top table for most things including English. I really need to chat to his teacher. I also wondered if anyone could tell me how able children need to be to gain a place. Must vary from school to school I imagine but any insight would be helpful.

Before you think about tutoring, just try him on some Bond papers. Our ds is at Grammar and wasn't tutored, but he did try the test papers for a few months before the test.

He isn't a genius or anything, but he was reading before he started school (dh taught him in the holidays before he started.

It very much depends on the school, I'm guessing you don't live in a grammar area from your post though, so would it be a grammar school with an extremely large or no catchment?

Have a look on the schools website and see what they test for, and have a go with the relevant Bond papers to see where you're at.

Is your son likely to be doing summer exams/tests/assessments at school? If so, when you speak to his teachers you can ask what sort of results he is likely to need to achieve in those to be considered as being on track for the 11+.

Thanks for that. Really good to hear that your son got in without formal paid tutoring. I dread the expense! Will look at the Bond papers too thanks.

Most of the kids in his year were tutored, but only 2 girls and ds passed, so not sure how valuable the whole tutoring thing is tbh.

Have a look on the 11 plus forum, I found it very helpful.

It makes me cross that anyone needs tutoring for the 11+. You should be able to pass the test without help, or otherwise surely it renders it worseless as a comparison tool. Money vs ability.

Theres a city grammar which is about 50 mins on the bus (too far probably) and a more local town grammar which is about 8 miles away.

DS doing pretend Sats this week. In year 2 he mostly got 3's and then a 2c for maths. Not sure if they were solid 3's or 'scrape through' 3's. Reading age is a few years ahead.

If he does enter for the exam, it would be nice if he could have a firm pass. I'm not sure if would be better to be top of a comp or bottom of a grammar?

Just off to locate the 11+ forum ...

www.elevenplusexams.co.uk

Hi there, all of the kids I know who got offered a place this year (because note, you can pass but not necessarily score high enough to be offered a place), were either extensively tutored and or went to TOP private schools. I am totally on the same page of BawdyStrumpet and a true believer entrance to these schools should be means tested. Anyway, irrespective of my views, the competition is getting tougher for entrance to grammar schools. With tough economic times, both private and grammar schools have seen record numbers apply and really bright kids who would in previous years have been offered a place, now not having a hope in hell because the standards are so high. I know of only one person who got in with minimal tutoring just before the exams, but tutored nonetheless, who was a wizard at maths. Not sure I'm convinced that there are many who could do that now, although I am sure not impossible. I'm convinced that kids getting places are scoring more or less a 100% or not far from it. A friend of mine's ds was offered a place but was debating between the grammar and a private school she was offered. When she called the grammar school to see where he scored comparatively, thinking that is he was somewhere towards the bottom, she wouldn't put him through the pressure, they said, for the kids that get offered a place there is not more than a point between them - it is that tight.

If pennies are an issue, then definitely start with bonds books now to learn the techniques leaving the year leading up to the exam to focus on speed. I also HIGHLY rate the Stephan Curran books (who also run courses which I have no experience of but have heard they're great and get booked up early). They're are not the most attractive books in the world but great for teaching technique.

My ds school btw, were never supportive of parents, who were thinking of grammars as they thought the local school was just fine, so you may have to take his teachers view with a pinch of salt.

Admittedly we did the grammar's as a back up as we were eligible for one of the top catholic comprehensives and fortunately got a place.

And please, please, please, if you are going the tutor route, please go on recommendation and 'recent' track record. This area is not regulated and I can not tell you the amount of rubbish I've come across. One was charging us the earth and when I stood quietly outside and listened in on one session was giving my son the answers.

DS is in a superselective grammar. He wasn't tutored. He didn't have any level threes at the end of KS1. Look at the eleven plus website for advice for your area.

@SeaHouses, how long ago was that? Like I said, I don't think it's impossible to do it without being tutored or assuming also, attending a top private school, just increasingly difficult because of the sheer competition. Indeed, the earlier you start reduces the need for one also. There were parents too that I found (and by no means do I mean you), who kept the fact that they were tutoring to themselves. I also found the eleven plus website incredibly useful.

DDs is a non-superselective which has a catchment plus residual places (which are allocated in order of results hence more selective).

The advice at their open evening (aimed at parents of yr5s) was that typically pupils would be getting level 5s at the end of yr5.

DD got a residual place; her school did some 11+ familiarisation but not that much (they did more for private school entrance exams which were all later). DH had her doing Bond tests - maybe 2 or 3 a week - during the summer hols between yrs 5 and 6. That was enough, at the right time for her.

I've never understood why parents that are so against tutoring want their kids to go to selective schools. I mean, the purpose of selective schools is to give the child a more intensive educational experience then that available at a comprehensive.

Apparently getting extra attention from parents or tutors so DC can beat other kids in 11+ is bad but getting extra attention from GS or Indie education so DC can beat comphrehensive school kids for that elusive university place is good.

The hypocrisy of some people

I went to a selective school - without tutoring. I am against it as it gives families with the money to pay for it an unfair advantage and discriminates against dcs from poorer families who maybe equally bright. One of the posters above mentions that they have a selective state school as "back up" plan vs the indie option. I am totally against the idea that you can "buy" your children an education. All children should have equal opportunities.

I agree with BawdyStrumpet. If your DC is grammar school material they don't need tutoring. If they only get there because you 'buy' their place, they are not suited. A few practise papers are all it should take.
The purpose of selective schools is to teach the DCs with high IQs- not those whose mummies want them to have a place!

Poosh - the purpose of selective schools is to give academic children an education appropriate to their abilities. If your child isn't intrinsically bright enough, they may be better served elsewhere. Education should be about providing schools which allow all children to fulfil their different potentials. The fact that this too often isn't the case isn't the fault of selective schools doing what they do well.

Maybe I am not clever enough (not enough tutoring I guess) but I fail to see the consistency in the above views.

Opponents of GS and Indies argue that it gives those kids an unfair advantage over comprehensive kids. A lot of you seem fine with that but you don't consider it 'fine' when it comes to the 11+

As for the argument that if kids can't get into a selective school without tutoring then maybe its nor the right place for then, if that is your thinking then why do you have your kids at selective schools? I mean if they aren't good enough to get into a good university if they went to a comp then, by your reasoning, maybe they shouldn't be at that university.

We home tutored our state primary DCs and now they are in highly ranked Indies and near the top of their years. Based on their initial mock tests they wouldn't have got in. I recently read a post from a mum who said her DD was devasted that she didn't pass and that maybe it was a blessing in disguise because she hadn't tutored DD and that DD would probably had struggled if she has got in with tutoring.

Good thing I didn't have hers (or your) attitude :o

Bottom line - my kids only got in because of home tutoring. And now, not only are they thriving, they are predicted a clean slate of A and A*.

There are some kids that are borderline but with tutoring they scrape a pass and then struggle once in. The fault lies with the parents for pushing their DCs beyond what they are capable of as opposed to tutoring per se. As for tutoring giving rich parents an advantage, we are not rich. We downloaded papers and we spent the summer holidays getting the kids to do a paper each day. If you or your child isn't prepared to commit to that then a selective school is probably isn't for you so it probably is a blessing in disguise.

I have my DD at a selective school because it seems most appropriate to her at this stage of her education. I'm pretty sure she's got the ability to get into a decent university if she'd gone to the comp instead, but the school she's at suits her now.

GS and Indie may be unfair, but that's not their fault. Fix the schools which aren't letting kids achieve their potential, don't pull down the ones which are in the name of 'fairness' FGS.

I agree with your last para. That's an appropriate level of help. Tutoring a kid for years to get them to scrape a pass is the problem (both for the overtutored child and for the inherently bright child who didn't have any help from home or school). I do strongly feel that those state primaries who don't do any 11+ familiarisation (in areas where GS possible) are failing those children who don't have this sort of help available at home.

My experience is the opposite to DirayOf's - all those I know who paid for tutoring failed and those who were home-tutored passed.

Don't overestimate the ability of most 11+ tutors or underestimate your own abilities - it's only 11+ not degree level - any half-competent adult can teach it. But ypou know your own dc much better than any tutor.

You can buy all the books you'll ever need for the cost of about 2 tutorial sessions max - or for free if you borrrow or use the internet.

Re brightness, you just kind of know if your dc is very bright, don't you? Some kids do catch up later, but for a lot of kids it's obvious they were always top at stuff.

Level 3s in KS1 are a reasonable indicator - not for a late developer.

Being home tutored, which I think is fantastic by the way, is being on par to private education don't u think? I mean, that is ONE on ONE attention! Wouldn't put that on par with state primary education by a long shot - one teacher thirty kids and no tutor! No wonder they've had a high success rate. You're not comparing like for like.

1. All grammar schools are not equal - in our area, for example, 25% of children will gain a grammar place. In other areas it's only 5%.

1. Some tutoring - either by you, with books, or with a tutor, is probably necessary. Typically the tests are very specific, and if your child hasn't tried a few papers before, they'll probably fail - unless they're exceptional.

Diaryof - not really on a par - most parents aren't trained teachers and only do a few hours a week v 8 hours or whatever per day.

bread - Another way of looking at it is that your home-tutored child had more committed parents whereas those who had professional tutors had parents that were farming off the responsibility onto others. I'm not saying that this is what happened but it is not an unreasonable thought.

In our case, a professional tutor would have helped us with one of our schools. They don't publish past papers so we were going in blind. Came exam day DS encountered a form of question he hadn't encountered before. I later swapped notes on a forum and I was told that was why some parents familiar with the school hired tutors with experience of that school's exam papers.

Based on my experiences I don't think any hard conclusions can be drawn for or against home/professional tutors.