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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

grammar suitability?

70 replies

skybluepearl · 15/05/2012 22:11

We have various secondary schools around us - the good, the bad the ugly! DS is 9 and the thought has just crossed my mind that if we are to even consider our local grammar, then he must start tutoring quite soon. But I don't know if DS is able enough despite being on the top table for most things including English. I really need to chat to his teacher. I also wondered if anyone could tell me how able children need to be to gain a place. Must vary from school to school I imagine but any insight would be helpful.

OP posts:
breadandbutterfly · 18/05/2012 13:09

No, but many people claim that children can only get into selective schools with paid-for tutoring.

That is utter bollocks.

PooshTun · 18/05/2012 13:31

"many people claim that children can only get into selective schools with paid-for tutoring"

I suspect that you are generalizing here. I've yet to meet a parent who is guilty of your accusation. Some moms openly admit to not being very academic. Other don't want to tutor their kids for the same reason a husband doesn't want to give his wife driving lessons :)

OhDearConfused · 18/05/2012 13:33

posh "I mean, the purpose of selective schools is to give the child a more intensive educational experience then that available at a comprehensive."

No the purpose of selective schools (for most MNs) is to avoid the riff raff.

Intensive educational experiences are avalilable at most comprehensives (just with a more socially mixed crowd).

PooshTun · 18/05/2012 13:55

"the purpose of selective schools (for most MNs) is to avoid the riff raff"

Quite a generalisation there. I take it that you are of the view that well off people consider YOU 'riff raff'. Hence your observation.

I chose a selective school for mine because I wanted an environment that would allow my DS to thrive. I don't give a feck what social/economic/ethnic his classmates are and I like to think that the other parents think the same.

.

DiaryOfASingleMum · 18/05/2012 14:49

@Breadandbutterfly, I hear that but the level kids are being taught at in Primary schools most parents can do. PLEASE do not overestimate what is happening in primary schools, not sure why you chose to home tutor, but in a lot of cases, it's dismal. I had to move my son three times in three months after taking him out of private school and then gave up and decided to send him to school everyday because it's the law and a babysitting service to then spending every spare minute of the evenings, (outside of after school activities and major illnesses) and weekends teaching him myself, whilst at the same time teaching, myself also, lol. Despite just over 50% attendance, due to his illnesses, he is top of his class working at level 6. That had absolutely nothing to do with the school. In fact ALL the level 6 kids all had a tutor at some point, or parents who were teachers.

Then there is all the other issues the teachers have to deal with, which means she's never in the class. Every Monday too, they have a support teacher, which morphs the class into a mini St. Trinians - literally. We are talking jumping off the desks.

Some of the kids have their level six test on Monday. In the last five weeks he has had two lessons at school. I have given him a lesson everyday outside of school hours. Two hours of dedicated time from parents, compares to about 4 days in primary school. I swear that those paying for private education are simply paying for what we used to get as standard when we were kids. Honestly, based on my experience, the two simply do not compare.

exoticfruits · 18/05/2012 16:17

They are obviously at a poor school, there should be no need to teach at home.

DiaryOfASingleMum · 18/05/2012 17:01

@exotic. True. Nonetheless, research still proves that even in a good school, additional parental input and aspirations will accelerate a child's learning.

mumwithtwokids · 18/05/2012 17:19

Hi skybluepearl,

I've just been through all of this and my DS was fortunate enough to gain a place at our first choice superselective grammar in March.

My DS didn't receive any tutoring and only did 2 practice papers before the entrance exam - he also goes to a state primary. I know many people don't really want to hear this, but I'm sure there are many children who gain places without any type of tutoring.

With regards to ability, my son has been working above level in all his subjects from Y2. He is also predicted a 5a in his sats which he just sat. However there were some other children in his class who were also the same level but didn't make it to grammar school despite having additional tutoring.

My advice is that you do what feels right for your child as what works for one person doesn't work for another.

GrimmaTheNome · 18/05/2012 17:20

Research does tend to confirm the obvious!

Primary schools should bust a gut to help kids without the parental backup, its just wrong that some don't help at all with 11+.

BawdyStrumpet · 18/05/2012 18:19

Truly able children should pass without tutoring, true - I did. Apparently the school preselected the children that would take it based on their overall ability, not because they had been coached to pass a test. And that is how it should be.

I have no problem with the comprehensive system, if properly streamed, as an alternative for Grammar Schools/Sec Moderns. I do have an issue with being able to opt out and go for independant schools, as I think this serves only a minority of dcs.

BawdyStrumpet · 18/05/2012 18:22

And I think that, because the future powers that be in the UK need to be the brightest and ablest, not the ones with the money or the best family connections.

DiaryOfASingleMum · 18/05/2012 18:24

@Grimma Obvious to some. You'll be surprised at how many don't realise there's a correlation. It's a big world out there:)

I agree that it's outrageous that schools don't help with 11+ back up. I was often deemed as the snooty one for always trying to establish what was going on in this regard. I feel once again, parental pressure helps. My friend who's a headmistress did, like many, nothing towards the 11+, but demand eventually ensured that she did. In my ds's school however, I couldn't name more than 5 parents where the name 11+ has even left their lips.

LynetteScavo · 18/05/2012 18:30

"I know many people don't really want to hear this, but I'm sure there are many children who gain places without any type of tutoring."

From talking to friends who's children weren't tutored, these seem to be the ones who end up as G&T at super selective grammar schools.

(Although I would have thought the whole school would have been classed as G&T, but hey.)

GrimmaTheNome · 18/05/2012 19:19

"I know many people don't really want to hear this, but I'm sure there are many children who gain places without any type of tutoring."

Actually I'm delighted to hear it - its how it should be.

animaltales · 18/05/2012 20:06

I have three DCs who are/were at a superselective grammar school from a state primary. I practised the tests with them at home.

You don't need private tutoring but I would advise familiarisation with the tests.

They all scored level 5 in their SATs in Yr 6 (just to let you know the level they were working at).

Wouldn't say any of them would be classed as geniuses. Older two are/were at Russell Group universities, youngest just doing GCSEs now and predicted all A/A*s though.

exoticfruits · 18/05/2012 20:19

I think it is wonderful that schools do no preparation for 11+. I would love the impossible, a test that you couldn't prepare for and only the truly intelligent could work it out. Most DCs are average and selective schools are not for the average, or slightly above.

LynetteScavo · 18/05/2012 20:20

And lots of DC who don't get into a super selective grammar are working at level 5 in their Y6 sats.

OP, if your DC is on the top table, it's worth taking the 11+, they may be offered a place, they may not.

There is one DC from the middle table in DS1's class in junior school who is now at super selective grammar (no idea if he was tutored or not, but I suspect his mother heavily tutored him at home). One other DC from his class who went to the grammar school is from an immigrant family, and I suspect he had not tutoring at all, or even saw a practice paper, but he seemed stunningly bright to me. The others who went to the grammar school from his class were heavily tutored. The other DC from the top table had parents who were quietly confident their DC would pass the 11+, and just gave them a few practice papers. They weren't offered a grammar place.

I'm sooo glad I can by-pass all of this with DC 2 & 3.

What I'm trying to say is, put your child in for the 11+, it won't hurt them,but have a back up plan if they aren't offered a place.

GrimmaTheNome · 18/05/2012 20:29

I think it is wonderful that schools do no preparation for 11+. I would love the impossible, a test that you couldn't prepare for and only the truly intelligent could work it out.

I'd love that test too - but given it doesn't exist, it isn't wonderful at all that schools do no preparation - they should at least make sure candidates have done a couple of papers so they know what to expect. Grammar schools used to be a vehicle for social mobility, its shameful that they are now too much the preserve of the middle classes.

exoticfruits · 18/05/2012 20:33

They were- not any more. I have never understood why only the bright are given the chance to move upward.

exoticfruits · 18/05/2012 20:35

The impossible test would give the level playing field and parent wouldn't be able to do anything. Sadly can't be done.

LynetteScavo · 18/05/2012 20:38

Wouldn't that be, um, Comprehensives for all? Confused

BawdyStrumpet · 18/05/2012 20:40

I'm with Grimma on the Social mobility front. I think it this is very important if we are not going to have a future society totally polarised on the haves and have nots...

BawdyStrumpet · 18/05/2012 20:42

I am happy with comprehensives for all. That means ALL though.

exoticfruits · 18/05/2012 20:44

I would get rid of all grammar schools.

exoticfruits · 18/05/2012 20:47

Grammar schools have outlived their purpose- it is no longer the best- it is the pushiest parent - often with money. They look at their 9 yr old and think they won't pass, so instead of thinking that they are not suited to a selective school they get a tutor!