grammar suitability?

[skybluepearl]

We have various secondary schools around us - the good, the bad the ugly! DS is 9 and the thought has just crossed my mind that if we are to even consider our local grammar, then he must start tutoring quite soon. But I don't know if DS is able enough despite being on the top table for most things including English. I really need to chat to his teacher. I also wondered if anyone could tell me how able children need to be to gain a place. Must vary from school to school I imagine but any insight would be helpful.

I would get rid of independant schools - for much the same reason.

I just love it when MNetters generalise about selective school parents/DCs AND THEN get outraged when others generalise about comps and/or state schools.

I home tutored mine and they both got into highly selective Indies. No, they are not struggling. No, we are not rich. No, the parents that are rich are not snobby or elitist.

Until the scientists invent a machine that measures intelligence, the entrance exam is the best tool for selecting kids. If you don't believe in tutoring your DCs then that is your choice. If you can't be bothered to tutor your DCs then that is also your choice. But stop whinging and moaning about how its nor fair.

It's a bit like turning up at the Olympics with little or no prep and then going on about how medals should go to those with natural ability as opposed to those who several hours a day.

meant to say .... to those that train for several hours a day.

But if you were going to take a child a train them for the Olympics, lets say gymnastics. Surely it would make more sense to pick a child with natural ability, rather than one with average ability, but was currently performing well because they had been coached to perform well in one event?

I live in an area with some state grammar schools. One primary school flatly refuses to do anything to prepare the pupils in any way if they are to sit the entrance exams. So those who can afford to, or who chose to because their children have the ability, or because the parents aspire to their children going to a grammar school, prepare them. But for the children who are bright and able, but whose parents won't or can't prepare them in this way will be disadvantaged, if they sit the exam at all.

The school down the road, in the same LEA, runs voluntary sessions so pupils can at least have some experience of the type of exam papers, which are completely different to those they have done before.

OP - in answer to your question, have a look on the schools website, go to the open days (they will be coming up soon probably) and find out what papers they use (the ones round here use GL Assessments). They will have meeting for parents this time next year which will tell you pass marks/catchments etc.

If you think you want a tutor, you may want to find a tutor now, because they do get booked up well in advance, but even the schools say do not tutor if they do not have the ability as they will struggle and be unhappy. Tutor for exam technique and don't start until Easter next year at the earliest.

Alternatively, you may find going through the papers yourself with DS leading up to the exams will be enough. A mock exam is a useful exercise, usually set up by a private company in a local school, to give them experience of what to expect on the day.

hope that helps.

Lynette - Your analogy doesn't really work. If you took a person with average ability and trained them for the Olympics they would not make it to the finals because at that level there will be no shortage of athletes with natural talent AND training.

PooshTun, It's not the parents who don't want to/can't be bothered/ don't know how to tutor their children who are the ones who whinge and moan, as you put it. It's the ones who are able to see the system isn't as fair as it once was who are "whinging and moaning about how it's not fair".

Anyway Lynette, my point is some people consider it unfair that school places go to those who are better tutored. Yet when it comes to other endeavours they see nothing wrong with gold medals going to the best trained athletes.

That's exactly why my analogy does work.

But gaining a grammar school place is not like winning a gold medal. The gold medal in this case is the final exam results.

Anyway, I'm off out now.

So glad I don't have to tutor my 9yo to get him into a decent high school.

Lynette - Most/all parents, myself included, thinks its unfair that selective school places go to the best tutored kids but in the absence of some test being invented that measures true ability then we have to play the game imperfect as it is.

Getting the place is only the very start and they then have 7 years of keeping up. Training for the Olympics is quite different, getting picked is the end- they may not win but they are a winner just by being chosen. If they are not up to it for the next competition they are dropped. No one says 'we will still have you because you were good 3 years ago.
I wouldn't object so much if at the end of each year the late developers were given a place and those who failed to keep up swapped places. (funnily enough, it is called a comprehensive- with movement up and down).

DD1 goes to a super selective grammar. Of her Yr 6 class of 48, (2 classes of 24) 47 were level 5 for English, 46 were level 5 for maths. 8 were offered a place at the super selective grammar ( although, to be fair, not all 48 of them sat for the grammar).

Of those that got in, some were heavily tutored from as early as Yr 2 or 3 onwards, some just did practise tests at home. My DD did about one test per week for about half a year, and frankly, I think we did more than was needed (but the school don't tell the score, so you don't know if you just scraped through, or got top marks).

Anyway, she is thriving there, and the only girl in her class who is not doing so well is dyslexic, and appealed for her place on that basis. (Very high IQ, but dyslexic, So didn't pass the test.) So the moral of that story is that it might be a great school, but not the best school for your DC!

Exactly, HandmadeTail.
I certainly would only expect the very top to get a place. 46 with level 5 and 8 places sounds about right to me.

Handmadetail did your DD go to a private primary school? It seems amazing that all children bar one or two achieved level 5s across the board.
I don't think my (affluent SE) school could do that even if we had 24 per class.

@Handmadetail and @choccyp1g Was just thinking the same thing. Those are some pretty impressive figures for level 5. If it is a private then 8 into grammar school is about right. Having said that, there's a private school near me that gets around twenty into grammar's and the rest into top indie's.

On the question of 'NATURAL ABILITY'. I appreciate that there is indeed the odd gifted child. But in reality, with the right 'tuition' (dear I say that word) although that also includes good teachers, right environment, aspirational parents who believe in their kids and who contributes to their kids education, etc, can not all children achieve more or less the same thing?

I remember watching this documentary about top violinist Vanessa Mae, who was convinced that she was just simply born with the 'natural ability' as in it being a gift, to play well. What the studies proved however, was that by her very nature, she wasn't in fact particularly studious and her greatest came about, simply because she practiced more than everybody else. Her mother, rightly or wrongly, had her practicing several hours a day.

Meant to say 'her greatness came about' (that's what happens when you type with a glas of red wine in your hand:)

DS has a place for super selective grammar. He achieved level 5 in year 2 sats.

I had a tutor for one hour a week, she set papers to check his knowledge and find any gaps. There were things in the exam that had not been covered in year 5 prior to the exam, which is earlier next year.

It is one thing to do a little tutoring to bring out the best in an able child and another to over tutor and pressurise a less than able child.

I think the quality of the current school is also very relevant, are the DCs achieving their potential.

Quite common in my area,choccyp1g- luckily fully comprehensive.