Common Entrane Exams

[Uloves]

Do anyone know whether DS can be registered for both Academic Common Entrance and the Standard Common Entrance exams for different schools? The Academic one is in May and the standard common entrance is in June. I want a guarantee of having secured a school from my second choice school before sitting for my 1st choice school in June.

ds took some subjects at CAS and others CE so it must be possible to do both. However the critieria and curriculum differ so you may find he won't do as well in either than if he just focussed on one. I assume he isn't sitting them this year as you haven't sorted this out yet. Also many schools offer on the basis of their own exams taken earlier in the academic year, so not dependent on CE. Perhaps such a school would be a better option for your ds ?

There is Common Entrance and Common Scholarship offered by the Independent Schools Examinations Board.

Some schools use ISEB papers, others use their own (particularly for scholarship), but all prep schools follow the ISEB specification.

Typically, scholarship candidates are identified before the start of Year 8, and then they may have their own stream (if in a large school) or have lunchtime/twilight scholarship lessons.

Scholarship exams (though not CS) usually take place in the Spring term of Year 8, and if the candidate makes a decent show, they do not have to sit CE in June.

Sometimes Art/Drama/Music/PE scholarships are dependent on a certain passmark in CE.

It is all up to the individual senior school. The Director of Studies and Headteacher in the prep school will have all the answers you need.

Further to the OP's situation, if your DS is not awarded a scholarship, do you not wish to take a full fee place at that school?

Typically, boys get their senior school place when they sit their pretest (late Y6, early Y7), and the CE is a formality. If they 'fail' their scholarship papers, they will undoubtably be offered a full fee place with or without sitting CE.

It is very unusual for boys to hold two school places around CE time.

The best thing to do is to talk to your HT or DoS at your prep school. They are the absolute experts in local senior schools, and are able to do a bit of work behind the scenes if everything goes pear-shaped.

I have never heard of boys being able to hold onto 2 places till such a late date, you have to name your 1st preference school before sitting.
Mrs Meaner is right even if your DS doesn't do well enough to be offered a scholarship, he should do well enough to pass scholarship entrance. If he doesn't make scholarship entrance then he will have to sit common entrance as well a few weeks later, most of the stuff is the same but he will then have to sit RS. If he only failled one paper at scholarship entrance most schools will just make him sit that paper as part of common entrance.
Most schools pre-test now, and all the heads at schools we short-listed said they weren't worried about CE marks, it was the pre-test that was important. These are some of the top schools in the country.

OP you had a thread last week where you were looking for alternative schools for this year as mocks had not gone so well. Now you're asking about sitting a scholarship? I'm confused!!! Scholarship sample papers are generally available for your chosen school so you could look at those. Has your DS done scholarship classes at his prep school? If people hold more than one offer it is normally from a non CE school and the child then sits for a CE school. Can get costly though with multiple deposits. What advice is your prep school head giving?

Milkshake - I'm still looking for a second backup school should the CE not go well. I guess I'm looking for school who if he sits the CAS and passes at CE level, they will offer him the place before sitting for his first choice school. Working with Prep school to find the second choice school now.

Take a look at some sample papers on say the st Edwards website. That should give you an idea of the level they are looking for at the scholarship. I would ask them if they will give a CE place if he does not achieve the scholarship, but i dont know how they then manage their numbers for CE where children already have conditional offers. Their passmark is 55% so not materially different from the 60% you are looking at from the other two. good luck. Keep the pressure on the prep school head. This is what you are paying him for....

Thanks Milkshake. I'm very disappointed at prep school after 9 years from reception to year 8! Feel really let down so yes, I'm keeping the pressure but feels like have to do more on my part as things haven't really played out as I was promised! Thought I was done with the school rounds 3 years ago.

Well good luck. Fingers crossed that it all works out in the end.

I have heard of several cases where the DC sits a scholarship exam, doesn't get a scholarship but gets offered a normal, non-scholarship place that is not conditional on CE. In other words, a good performance on the scholarship papers removes the need for CE.

OP, it sounds as though your DS is sitting CE for a school that has a relatively high pass mark and that you are now being advised that he is unlikely to obtain that score? Hence the need for a back-up school?

You just need to find a school that is undersubscribed...

Would second the options of looking at schools which sit their own 13+ entrance exams instead of/as well as CE. Whitgift in South London will offer boarding from Sept 13, has its 13+ in Jan with offers in Feb. Caterham has co-ed boarding and similarly 13+ in Jan. Oakham does a nonCE 13+ in January. you need to check which subjects are covered, but Whitgift, Caterham are Maths, English and VR, whereas Oakham tests in French and Science as well.

Thanks Ladymuck and Trix2323. Most the school with entrance exams have no places available as their process ended Jan - March. I have 3 schools who possibly have places, Epsom, Ardingly and Stowe first and Hurst, Lancing possibilities as well. thanks for all your messages.

Oh crikey, didn't realise that you meant for this September! Have you not got a conditional offer? Or is ti down to the fact that he isn't achieving what he should be?

Sorry I''m confused now . They will normally accept CAS in lieu of CE but not vice versa. Which has he been prepared for ? Are you being advised not to enter him for CAS at all, when the exams are just over a month away Epsom currently rely on CE although they have recently introduced a Year 6 pretest for entry in 2014, Hurst is also CE, Ardingly have their own exam so with the first 2 you still won't get a guaranteed place just yet.

I'm really, really confused about your situation, OP.

Does your DS already have a place at a senior school, conditional upon passing CE. Are you worried that he will not pass his CE? Did you follow the HM's advice re this school, or did he actively advise against it.

If your DS is dodgy with CE, why do you think he will pass CS?

Perhaps you could look for a place at a school where the majority of intake is at 11+. They may just go with their own exam as and when, rather than synching with traditional prep/senior schools.

Why are you disappointed with your HM?

Iirc the OP's son has a conditional place but after his CE mocks the head doesn't think he'll get the required mark and I assume he doesn't think he can improve sufficiently between now and CE date.

OP (I think) is looking for alternatives that have space and may require lower than 60% for CE pass. I suppose her thought re CAS is those exams are sooner so if her ds doesn't do well enough to pass CAS but does well enough to get a pass equivalent to CE he will be offered a place without having to wait to sit CE proper in June.

Assuming the OP has followed the head's guidance in the original school selection I think she has every right to be disappointed with the head. I'd be livid to end up in that position.

I think you still have to go through the Y6/7 pretest for CS. Basically, pass the pretest (which is generally VR/NVR), accept a conditional place, the register for scholarship via the prep school.

I really don't see the logic in applying for scholarship if the CE is in doubt. The more reasonable step would be to apply to a non-selective school.

It is extremely rare to fail CE to an appropriate school. The system is actually very good at matching up boys to the right schools. It falls down when parents insist on a particular school against the advice of their prep school head.

I didn't realise there are different papers for CAS and CE until I read this thread! If the OP has listened to the head then, from what you say, this sort of experience must be pretty rare.

CS generally takes place about a month before the CE summer examination. This is administered by the senior school rather than the prep school.

It is a different set of papers from CE. Only a handful of schools use CS; most have their own scholarship papers. Schools' own scholarship exams are taken early in the spring term, well ahead of CS.

A scholarship candidate will need a very strong reference from the prep head.

Hope you don't mind me asking but how far ahead are you supposed to start visiting possible schools and drawing up a list? When will the prep head have a chat with you about which schools to apply to? I assume before year 6 but how long before year 6?

cogs started turning at my sons prep when he was in year 5 Mollie...
My DS has done his scholarship papers (not CS- schools own) for the senior he is going to in February and we have already accepted his scholarship and place before start of March. DS is still doing CE in summer, don't know why, I suppose just to tick the box, cross the t and dot the i!!
What has your ds's HM said about this to you? Its all very late to start looking isn't it? At DS's school all scholars are streamed in year 7 and 8 and taught away from the rest of the year. Just assumed this was how it is done in all schools.
wish you luck with your search. Sorry I'm not much help, I didn't know you could do CS and CE... Senior my son is going to set their own papers so we worked towards their level they had set.

Mollie I agree with cows seriously started looking by the end of year 4/ year 5. This is fine unless you are applying to a school which you have to be on the list earlier. We were not so that didn't apply. Prior to year 4 though I looked at friend's DCs who were at various schools as at the end the day it is the product that is important. We also went to the Independent Schools Show in London. This helped us cut down on our list for visiting. I know people have previously said that these shows can confuse but we found it useful. Our DC's headmaster was also very helpful in steering us in the right direction.

"most have their own scholarship papers. Schools' own scholarship exams are taken early in the spring term, well ahead of CS."
Eton and Win Coll write their own scholarship papers and the boys sit it in May!!
I do agree with the above if you don't think you DS will pass CE for Tonbridge I don't quite understand why you think he would pass the CAS.
I think you will have to go for a school with a lower CE pass mark and vacancies in 7 years at prep I only know one who failed CE and that was for Tonbridge!
But you are right to be exceedingly cross with your prep head i'd be hopping.

Mollie O our discussions started in years 4/5. Epsom require registration 3 years prior to entry minimum (ie they closed 2014 entry in Autumn last year then pretested those kids in January of this) so would be surprised if they would consider a new application now and usually they require above 60% unless he has other talents (sports, drama etc). A C grade at CAS is still viewed as A at CE btw.

Ds is moving schools for yr 4 so his new head is going to have to make a fairly quick assessment of likely senior schools! His current school wouldn't have a clue as it's geared up for changing at 11 rather than 13.