German or Mandarin?

[apricotsorbet]

Ds has to choose between German and Mandarin for GCSE. He has done a year of each and loves both, but it is clear to me that in a year he has learnt a lot more useable German than useable Mandarin. He is struggling to choose?I have no knowledge of Mandarin at all, and the level you are likely to reach. The school gets good results in each, so I think he?ll get a good grade whichever he chooses (provided he works). Has anyone got any experience of GCSE mandarin, is it useful or are you really just scraping the surface at GCSE? Would it be better doing German where you might get further in the language, or better taking the opportunity to do Mandarin as it would be easier to learn German independently later?

Mandarin is the way to go. If your DS becomes a professional, then all Germans he will deal with with speak English and none will expect or be impressed by any ability to speak German. However, if he speaks Mandarin (and keeps it up) it is likely to be a very unique and impressive (to both Brits and Chinese) selling point.

Companies in this country have apparently got significant problems finding German speakers - which is an issue since Germany has a massive economy and we need to be able to speak to them. And while the big German companies do have English speakers, the smaller ones don't and it causes massive problems. Also, German is learned by many in Eastern Europe and also by Russians - so German can be a common language for working with more than just Germany.

Statistically as well - he is more likely to get a good grade at GCSE in the German. Mandarin GSCEs are notoriously hard for all but native speakers (there was a run of press articles about this a few yeas back).

Mandarin is useful if he wants to get a job dealing with China/move to China and if so he must learn to read and write well. While it is nice to be able to converse, companies will need him to communicate fluently in writing too - which is a big ask. In the jobs market, he will also be in competition with the Chinese children (millions of whom are learning English).

I would recommend the German at GCSE, and to find a native speaker to keep the Mandarin going on the side.

What is his learning style like?

Mandarin isn't that complicated a language to learn, but is is hard because you have to learn so much by rote (and learning to read and write is essentially "look and learn" with nothing reliably guessable or possible to deduce from knowledge of other European languages).

That said, I'd probably go for Mandarin - much for the reasons that OhDearConfused points out. But if you think that he is going to focus on languages for A Level or degree, then having a European language securely will be a huge advantage (as not that many schools do Mandarin, and so I expect it would be easier to find a beginners course later on).

does he know yet what he would like to do after school?

Definitely Mandarin. There will be much more call for this than German.

I'm currently doing GCSE Mandarin, and it is hard - not only do you have to learn different vocabulary (and how to pronounce it) but you also have to learn the characters as well.

But if he's already done a year, is doing well and enjoys it then there is no reason why it would be any harder than German. IMVHO, having done German O-level a million years ago, I think it is actually a more complex language - different cases make it more difficult from a grammatical perspective.

And Mandarin apparently also helps with the development of the right side of the brain - the more creative side.

Your son should opt for which ever he enjoys the most. Simple. Learning a language is all about enjoying it, and building confidence so that you can use it; the more you use it, the more you enjoy it and vice versa. As a modern languages grad who chose her A levels (English Lit and two languages) and degree course (three languages) because I loved them, I really believe this. Nonsense about 'all Germans speaking English'; that's not true and even if it were, no 14 year old's GCSE choices should be swayed by that. Encourage him to think about which he enjoys and what HE wants to study, because he wants to study it. Knowledge of any other language will always be an asset, whatever he does in the future.

Thankyou everyone for your comments, there are some useful points to think about. It's a difficult decision. We're having a meeting with the language teachers next week so hopefully that will help.

How wonderful to read a question about someone who loves two foreign languages.

Could he not do both?

German is a great language to learn - it is very logical, easy to pronounce, easy to learn up to intermediate level. If you want to support him in German by exposing him to a bit of real German, a short trip to any German city will be easy, useful and not too expensive.

However, I am convinced that Manderin is one of the languages of the future. If he knows some Manderin, then a trip to China will be easier compared with not knowing anything. This could give him an advantage when it comes to employment.

If it were me making the decision, I would think about how good the teachers would be; whether it would be possible to expose him to real language; what grade he could be expected to get; whether he would be able to learn either of the languages at a later date; and his interest.

Good luck with the decision. I would be interested to read the points made by the teachers if you feel like coming back to report.

most chinese people can speak better english than most of us, so really i don't think it's worth bothering with

Sorry, sea, but that's the classic British line - everyone else will speak English.

What's wrong with wanting to learn other languages? Countries like China will actually be very difficult to visit/do business with if you don't speak the language. And the vast majority of Chinese people won't actually speak English.

A school dad has a degree in Mandarin. He was saying that degree level linguistics skills will just about allow you to converse in a business situation.

A GCSE or A level in any language, German or Mandarin, will allow you to get around the respective country but that is about it.

So I wouldnt let the job thing drive your decision making.

If DC enjoys both equally then why not choose the one that he has the better chance of getting a good grade in.

Career wise, there is plenty of time for summer immersion courses in whatever.

I'm surprised by that, Pusheed, given that any language degree has you spend a year in the country of the language you are learning. Surely that must make you pretty fluent?

And business language may have jargon of its own, but it can't be that complicated to add to your overall vocabulary.

The next time there is a guy at your door trying to get you to switch gas/electricity suppliers ask him to explain the various tariffs and in what way will you be better off and by how much.

Imagine following that and at the same time parsing what he is saying through your Bull Shit Detector. Now imagine doing that in a foreign language. :)

Now that's given me a brilliant idea. Next time they arrive on my doorstep I'll only speak to them in Mandarin

I find my rather basic German very useful for ordering gorgeous toys for DD from German websites

I have no idea whether to go for Mandarin or German, but I can totally understand what Pusheed is saying. (Even though I am a forriner )

My husband studied Norwegian full time for a year in Norway, we lived there for three years, he read the news, he watched tv, he talked to neighbours and friends. He said he felt his IQ drop by around 50% every time he had to speak Norwegian. It was a question of saying what he could say, not what he wanted to say. If the insurance company rang, or there was a sales call, he passed the phone to me. He speaks Polish and English, has some Russian and German, and now enough Norwegian to get by in every day situations.
I would not imagine that a GCSE on its own is going to be very helpful in conducting any business in a foreign language.

I wasn't suggesting that GCSE Manderin would be sufficient to conduct business.

In the future, it is likely that people will travel to China more and more for business as China grows. Even a smattering of a language goes a long way in making a trip just that bit easier, which is good for the speaker in the long run. Furthermore, knowledge of a language adds a dimension of cultural understanding that makes it easier to develop trust, which is essential in business.

Immersion later is also an option for those that have the time.

I am off to a Spanish speaking country tomorrow for the first time, and I am a bit embarassed that I won't even be able to say "thank you" in the taxi or ask politely for a glass of water or understand the sentence "here is your hotel". GCSE would help with that.

I would go for mandarin as my tutor said something about in a few years time it will be the biggest language spoken. Cannot remember stats probably wasting time not listening and posting on mumsnet !!

what a shame your son can't carry on with both languages...are you completely sure this is not possible?
I don't think absolute spoken fluency in a language is a prerequisite for using it professionaly - I studied German to A'level (old style) and have found it very useful as it has enabled me to do occasional translating work, although I wouldn't be able to speak it fluently at all.

Both languages are definitely very useful and worth continuing, especially if he enjoys and is good at both, why not let him continue with Mandarin at school (as I would imagine it's harder to find classes outside of school), and do German classes privately?

"the vast majority of Chinese people won't actually speak English"

While it is true that your average factory work won't speak English that is not true for your average young office worker in a large company.

Its like in the West where you need GCSE English to get an office job. Over there the basic requirement is also English.

Its the same with the public facing jobs in the major cities. If you were to jump onto a London tour bus chances are your guide will only speak English. Your Chinese guide on the other hand will speak English with various levels of competence. It is a basic job requirement.

I actually tried to conduct business with China more than 10 years ago. Finding somebody who could speak English was a struggle then. It sector.
When I later made some inquiries related purchasing a container load of wooden train sets, and arrange to shipping a freight container from Singapore to London (Quints crazy life) I had no English language issues. I guess from my extremely limited experience that it all depends on the type of sector, and how geared they are towards English speaking countries, from a commercial perspective.
I guess it has changed now. My friend worked as an English teacher there a few years, in a remote province.

"I would go for mandarin as my tutor said something about in a few years time it will be the biggest language spoken"

Last year China's economy grew by 8%. Contrast that with the USA and Europe. Various experts have said that in about 50 years, if not sooner, China will replace the USA as the world's economic superpower. Hence the rush for US business graduates to learn the language.

I don't think that Chinese dominance is inevitable. I'm old enough to remember the above being said of Japan 30 years ago and people of my generation were urged to learn Japanese.

As another poster has said, foreigners invariably speak English better than we speak their language so there isn't the expectation that we speak their language. That is not to say we should be ignorant about their history or culture or not to have a basic understanding of their language. That is why I've taught myself how to say 'please', 'thank you' and 'you are welcome' in a number of languages. It always gets a smile out of the locals :)

Although the vast majority of Chinese will not speak English, those in the East who work in business will, and to a very good standard.
My son speaks both - fluent in German (he was born there) and has been learning mandarin for 3 years. Mandarin grammar is easy compared to German - no articles, no cases, limited tenses, but the tones can be tricky to master and learning characters can be tedious. I would continue with Mandarin at school and learn German with a private tutor as it is much easier to extend your vocabulary in German on your own once you have the basic building blocks. Whereas using a dictionary to find a character is..um.. challenging to say the least.

Shanghaidiva - have you seen this site

You can draw the characters to find out what they mean - much easier!

BIWI - Thanks for the link. DS has an aptitude for languages so we are keen to expose him to as many languages as possible purely for a self development viewpoint as opposed to a career enhancing thing.