Faith Schools

[AngelEyes46]

On looking through previous threads, there seems to be a lot of controversy about faith schools, practicing the catholic faith, using the system to get into a over subscribed school. What are people's thoughts?

Very interesting reading!! My DCs went to a RC primary and also RC secondary. There were children from their primary that opted out of the RC system and went to a good or outstanding non faith school. BUT SO WHAT!! Feeder schools have been taken out of faith secondary schools so non faith primary children can move into faith schools if they want. Community schools do not have the same admission policy as each other, i.e. some do admit via feeder schools (which then excludes us Catholics!); some admit a percentage on ability and others admit purely on distance. Faith schools ask for a commitment to their particular faith - how is this wrong?

alemci - 'the atheists and humanists don't need separate schools as the non religious schools are secular and don't include christian worship.'

This is a fallacy! All state-maintained schools in England are required by law to have collective worship each and every day.

AngelEyes 'Faith schools ask for a commitment to their particular faith - how is this wrong?'

Perhaps because it is discrimination on grounds of religion, which I thought was illegal?

JustGettingByMum, you are very sensitive to a mild bit of mischief. My comments were nothing compared with what I could be writing, and what others write all the time. There is a big difference between respecting others' right to believe and go about their business, and actively criticising or campaigning against those beliefs or that religion or similar. My comments show that while I myself do not believe, nor feel a need to, I have no problem with others doing so if they wish. What I would rather is that religion were an entirely personal thing, in the home and in the church. It has no place in education.

@moscow free education in this country was almost entire the province of the Cof E until the c20th.

I don't see why people shouldn't have faith schools. The only issue I have is that it means that religious people have more choice of school than the rest of us. I think you should have a right to a secular school if that is what you want. I don't think people should apply to both faith and secular schools - if you can apply to a faith school, you shouldn 't limit access to good secular schools by applying to them as well.

Ahh, I just came on here as considering the idea of sending DD to a Catholic free school and wondered what people's thoughts and feelings were around these types of schools... I think I might just continue pondering quietly to myself!

Swanker where I worked didn't have this system and it was a huge secondary school. the students would have assembly once a week and it was usually a secular theme. I don't think secondary schools necessarily do an act of worship every day.

thetasigmamum: I am aware of that, but not sure why you are raising it? are you saying things should never have changed, that we should all be grateful to the Church, or something else?

@ sashh - At least you have a 'few' choices, there are no humanist or atheist schools.

Nonsense, I went to a 'normal' state school with no religious worship whatsoever, as does my eldest dd.

It's perfectly easy to find a school that doesn't indoctrinate you in a religion. Obviously, all schools teach you about religions in general, not to convert you, but so that you understand the world we live in - just as they teach you about the people in the past without expecting you to time travel.

Clearly your RE teaching wasn't very good, or you'd have a greater understanding of people with different faiths.

BTW I'm not Christian, but have no problems with living in a Christian country, people celebrating XMas, Christian traditions, songs, history etc. If I don't like the fact I'm living in a Christian country, I could move to a Republic such as the US, France etc. The UK is NOT a secular country. Get over it.

I don't think secondary schools necessarily do an act of worship every day.

Many secondary schools recognise that the law requiring christian 'collective worship' is an ass, and have quite rightly put it out to grass. Unfortunately may primary schools haven't - at the age where children are impressionable and are inclined to be a bit too likely to believe everything teacher says, they still do religious assemblies.
(Didn't this come up on another thread recently and get thoroughly thrashed out).

breadandbutterfly
Nonsense, I went to a 'normal' state school with no religious worship whatsoever, as does my eldest dd.
I find that highly unlikely as it is a legal requirement of all schools that the LEA, Governors and OFSTED would have picked up on.

Talkin - my DDs secondary school has a 'collective worship' policy which essentially defines 'collective worship' to mean what it wants - OFSTED rates the school excellent. Its a pity all non-faith schools don't do likewise and get rid of this anachronism.

But back to actual faith schools:

Perhaps because it is discrimination on grounds of religion, which I thought was illegal?

Illegal for everything except schools admission and hiring of teachers. Its truly weird.

Its high time the state stopped supporting faith schools. They are discriminatory and divisive. Other countries seem to manage just fine with a properly secular state education system.

grimma
yup, most secondaries get around it pretty well

but I bet the Catholic School boards are twitching a bit after this report came out .....
www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/mar/05/church-schools-shun-poorest-pupils

TalkinPeace2 you got there before me

Clearly your RE teaching wasn't very good, or you'd have a greater understanding of people with different faiths.

yep - that's because I went to an RC school pre national curriculum so I did O Level RE - the special RC sylabus that was nothing but dogma.

BTW I'm not Christian, but have no problems with living in a Christian country, people celebrating XMas, Christian traditions, songs, history etc. If I don't like the fact I'm living in a Christian country, I could move to a Republic such as the US, France etc. The UK is NOT a secular country. Get over it.

Why the hell should I move? I'd rather change thinbgs here, I'd rather not have CoE bishops interfering with law.

I have no objection to anyone celebrating Easter, Eid-al-Fitir, Channaka etc etc but I don't think anyone should be forced to do it.

The UK is NOT a secular country.
yet .

It didn't used to be a CofE country. These things are not set in stone - societies can evolve. And (I keep having to say this, boring but I'll keep doing it for as long as it takes), 'secular' does not in any way, shape or form mean 'people celebrating XMas, Christian traditions, songs, history' is disallowed or discouraged. All 'secular' means is religion butting out of the functions of the state. 'No religious privelige, no religious discrimination.' What's not to like about that?

Just read the guardian link. Interesting, as it seemed to contadict previous reports which said RC schools often have more deprived pupils. The RC secondary schools in my London borough are mostly Afro-Carribean and other diverse heritages - RC schools have 26% non-white pupils compared to 21% other schools. Previously RC schools were said to have 6% as opposed to 7% school free school meals.

What is true that it may be harder for some pupils to claim free school meals. Have been trying to help a lady who is living in one room with her son, and sharing loo + bathroom, but has only very recently been able to have Free School meal as she is not yet a British citizen.

And he is educated at RC school, I should add!

I'm not a British Citizen and I could get free school meals.
But I am a UK resident and taxpayer.
I just have no control over the Government.

In fact the report doesn't entirely contradict the previously reporting situation where RC schools often have more deprived pupils.

Quoting:

"figures from the DfE showed 18.6% of pupils at Catholic primary schools live in the 10% most deprived areas of England, compared with only 14.3% of primary school pupils nationally. Some 17% of pupils at Catholic schools lived in the 10% most deprived areas compared to 12% of pupils nationally."

The issue seems not to be with the % of pupils in Catholic schools from deprived areas, which is higher than that in non catholic schools, rather with the % of pupils from deprived areas who go to catholic schools in deprived areas. This is because the location of catholic schools was determined in most cases in the earlier part of c20, and the population distribution may have changed since then. Therefore catholic pupils in deprived areas may be attending catholic schools in postcodes which are now 'good', while catholic schools in postcodes which are 'deprived' may be situated in places where there is no longer a significant catholic community. If there is no catholic community anywhere near those schools then they top-up from the locality....but if there is a catholic school in e.g. the city, or the borough (in London terms) then the pupils will bus in. My DCs primary school used to be in a very posh area. The school roll was significantly less posh than the location, very catholics who went to the school could afford to live in the direct area. The school then re-located across the city, to a ward which is significantly less posh. The pupils didn't change though, and while the progress of time is changing the school roll (the school does not fill up on catholic pupils alone) there are still two entire year groups at the school who started when it was located in the posher area, many of whom come from that area (and are not catholic).

And this seems to be the problem many people actually have with catholic schools - not that deprived children can't access them but that deprived children do access them when they are located in leafy suburbs and the richer local residents resent not being able to get easy access. The idea of going to school down the end of your road is fine if you live in a lovely area. It's not so fine if you don't. In my case, we didn't live near the primary school when it was in the old location, we still don't live near it now it is in the new location, and there are no secondary schools close to us anyway.

TalkinPeace2 - let me assure you, this lady was not allowed to access benefits until my family gave her the money to apply for British citizenship. She is not from an EU country. Of course, she doesn't pay taxes. She doesn't earn enough.

theta - yes I agree the guardian piece plays fast and loose with statistics. I wish people would get as hot and bothered about grammar schools which have miniscule amount of pupils on free school meals.

Also, RC schools have plenty of people who may not be on fsm, but are what used to be known as 'respectable working class' - in my kids class there are occupations like central heating engineer, bus driver, taxi driver.

People need social networks like RC schools for social mobility.

Theta: I've seen similar stats - RC schools have proportionately more pupils who score on deprivation indices, and greater ethic diversity (presumably as they take in Catholics who have arrived from UK from anywhere round the globe), and they also have an exclusion rate which is lower than the average.

CofE isn't that different. Their stats are in line with national averages across the board (possibly because they are such a large provider), but they have slightly more than average schools with over 33% of pupils scoring on deprivation indices.

People need social networks like RC schools for social mobility.

Historically, the most effective agent of social mobility was plenty of grammar schools but that's by the bye.

In my area, the number of primary faith schools (CofE and RC) is out of all proportion to actual churchgoers. The nice leafy ones get good results and have rows of 4x4 parked outside at hometime. The ones in poorer areas have results similar to any other school in such areas. Secondary, there's a couple of 'good' CofE and a meh RC (less good ratings than the comp). When we first moved into the area, if a baptised RC child went to an RC primary, they were actually assigned lowest priority for any non RC school. We were gobsmacked that this sort of discrimination could exist - its been done away with now, quite right too. Excluding a child from a school because of its parents beliefs is quite simply wrong, whichever way round the discrimination applies.