Faith Schools

[AngelEyes46]

On looking through previous threads, there seems to be a lot of controversy about faith schools, practicing the catholic faith, using the system to get into a over subscribed school. What are people's thoughts?

Any RC school that refuses the HPV vaccine on religious grounds is acting contrary to the guidelines issued by the UK's Catholic Education Service. Some non-faith schools have refused the HPV vaccine on practical grounds or through concerns over the side effects but this does not generate any publicity. And, of course, people assume that any faith school that refuses the HPV vaccine is doing so on religious grounds.

I am only aware of one RC school that refused the HPV vaccine. Their stated reason was concerns over the side effects following the school's participation in a pilot study in which a number of pupils received the vaccinations.

By the way, I would not expect to find creationism taught as fact in either RC or CofE schools. Neither church accepts creationism although some individual believers may do so, of course.

Of course, pupils taking certain GCSEs will be taught about creationism regardless of whether they are at a faith school or some other type of school because it forms part of the syllabus.

My kids attend a faith school because I wish to educate them in our faith. Without state faith schools, religion would be only for the rich. As it was, we had to move a v long way to find a suitable faith school - for my faith, there are few and far between. It would have been much easier if we had been happy with any non-faith school, as we would have had a bigger choice, and probably with better academic results too. Why do people wish to deprive us of the few choices we have?

Should add, to clear up this nonsense, of course my dc learn about other faiths, and about evolution. Plus we pay a substantial 'voluntary' contribution to cover the religious education - it is not paid for by the state.

@nooka there are not more catholic schools than there are Catholics. There are not nearly enough catholic school places for the Catholics wishing to attend catholic schools. Unfortunately the location of the schools does not always match the location of the Catholics.

@breadandbutterfly:

"Without state faith schools, religion would be only for the rich."

What nonsense. No state faith schools in the US and no shortage of religion there. The same can be said of plenty of other countries.

I am totally against segregating children based on their parents' religion. There should be state schools free of any religious bias (i.e. no CofE collective act of daily worship), and if parents want to indoctrinate their children this should be done outside school (or at a private school).

Unfortunately, I can't see any way to get to this situation based on where we are now. How New Labour thought the introduction of faith schools for lots more different religions would help I really don't understand.

malinois - no faith schools in the US.

I think not.

Have you ever been to the US? My nephew there went to a faith school.

Do check before you post this guff.

I agree with you Bread and Butterfly. My DC don't go to a faith school but when my daughter joined her school in 2005 the school stated it had a christian ethos in its prospectus and is affiliated with a church as it historically started in London but moved to the 'burbs'.

This school is slightly selective but not on religion but I was pleased it had christian leanings.

breadandbutterfly
sorry but your assertion is incomplete
there are NO STATE FUNDED schools in the USA that include religious education.
It is part of the Constitution.
If your nephew was at a 'faith' school his parents were paying - which is very unusual as fee paying schools in the US are far rarer than in the UK.
Most of the Christian fundamentalists home educate and then send their children to the bible Universities

Please do not get me wrong.
As an Atheist I TOTALLY believe that RE should be compulsory in UK schools
it is essential that children learn the roots of the society they live in and the religions that form much of the conflict in the world
BUT
I am UTTERLY against schools selecting intake on faith.
ALL pupils should learn about ALL faiths and world outlooks
it is the ONLY way that the planet will still be habitable when our children are grandparents.

@breadandbutter:

Yes, I have been to the US, lived there for 5 years in fact.

There are no state faith schools in the US. Anyone who knows the first thing about the US constitution (not you, obviously) will know why.

breadandbutterfly I am almost laughing at your idea of 'religion being for the rich'. The poorest nations of the world in the main are countries where the largest percentages are of a faith, and the richest nations are in the main homes to the fewest professors of faith (look at the figures for believers in Sweden, Denmark and Norway, then compare them with India, Nigeria, Brazil etc).

If one wants one's offspring to learn about one's religion, then surely the place of worship is the place to take them?

The state should have no part in faith schools - and to me, funding 90% of a school's costs is effectively funding the whole school, I sincerely doubt a school would remain open if its state funding were to be withdrawn.

If people want a faith-based education for their children, then IMO they should have to pay for it.

I am totally totally anti religious schools. Faith in anything does not make a child a better fit for a school.

Education should be of equal quality and available to all equally.

breadandbutterfly

At least you have a 'few' choices, there are no humanist or atheist schools.

@sassy Build them then. That's what we did. The majority of catholic schools in England were built and funded by parishioners (in some cases built with their own hands, like the school I went to as a child, in other cases they raised money and paid possibly more competent people to do the skilled building work). If you start the work the government might be shamed into doing something. I haven't got any problem at all with humanist schools. When the humanists aren't bitching about people of faith, they have some by admirable things to say. Letting humanists build their own schools might stop them feeling so bitter towards people of faith and to realise that people with faith and people with similar but non faith based principles can happily co-exist. I'd certainly support any campaign to let humanists build their own schools and I'd donate as well.

Fee paying schools in the US; actually there are lots of them. But the "Parochial" ones are not normally counted, these are faith schools, usually Catholic, which with subsidy from the church provide and "outside the state" education for very low fees, such that even the poorest can normally afford. They also usually use normal school buses to get there.

All Faith schools are frequently bashed on Mumsnet, it isn't just anti-Catholic.

Evangelical isn't the same as evangelism, it is a certain type of bible focussed beliefs in Christianity, and I think probably incompatible with Catholicism.

BTW most people in history were Christian for at least part of their lives, whatever evangelical Atheists would like us to believe

mummytime
Indeed.
I have both been baptised and confirmed and know my hymns and the proper words for the Lords Prayer by heart. I still love carol concerts.
But grew out of believing that there was any truth in the stories.
HOWEVER
It is essential that children are informed about the world and learning about religions is part of that.
And I've read enough science to know that Religion is a basic human need for those unhappy with the intellectual proof of scientific knowledge.

"BTW most people in history were Christian for at least part of their lives, whatever evangelical Atheists would like us to believe"

Erm, right....

mummytime
most people in history
news to the Chinese, Aztecs, Vikings, Mayans, Egyptians, Hindus, Jews, and just a few others!
Bearing in mind that Jesus, Mary, Joseph and the Apostles cannot (by doctrinal definition) have been Christians
thou art truly talking utter bollocks

It's been interesting reading through this thread since it was started. In response to the comments asking why it turned 'anti-Catholic': I possibly started this when I posted about the specific situation where I live. I am certainly not anti-Catholic, nor anti-religion. I do not believe myself, or am not sure, but I completely respect others' wish to believe and have faith, if that's what turns them on. What I resent is this hypocrisy that is so evident where we live, where Catholic children elbow non-Catholics out of the way when it comes to the primary schools in the area that just happen to be better than some of the others (and not all, btw, we have a really ropey couple of RC schools in this area, as well as a couple of great ones), because they simply 'must' be educated in the Catholic faith. THEN, at age 10, or secondary application form-filling time, suddenly that indoctrination is not at all important anymore, because suddenly they are happy to forego the average (or less) RC Catholic secondary, where their children would be able to continue to be nurtured by their Pope etc etc, in favour of the not-religious at all but... ooh, look, top-performing... state co-ed. And watch how many of the little darlings suddenly stop going to church.....

Again, I have no problem with other people, whether they be Catholic, CofE, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu or whatever, wishing to believe and get on their knees for something they can't see, hear, smell, taste or touch. I don't need it myself. But it should be kept out of schooling. Full stop. Or let's at least have a bit of consistency..... are there are believers here who are able and willing to explain why the whole religious-ethos at school thing is of the utmost importance between the ages of 4-10, then suddenly vanishes into thin air when a non-faith school has higher results?

@moscow my secondary school aged DCs don't go to a catholic secondary school because there isn't one. if there was one, they would go. As things stand, DD1 goes to a super selective grammar because she passed the test and DS goes to the bog standard comp which is the destination school for most of the kids from the primary they attended. He didn't want to do the 11+ and we didn't make him because he was absolutely convinced he wanted to continue going to school with his friends. The comp is CofE in name but it doesn't have any 'faith' element to it at all that I can see. All the state secondary schools in this town have CofE links. But they appear to be paper chains at best. Not that I'm bothered because we aren't CofE. There seems to be more thoughtful attention given to RE and extra curricular activities that resemble the sorts of things I ws roped in to doing at my catholic secondary school all those years ago (charitable appeas, links with Christian aid and cafod, that sort of thing) at the super selective grammar, actually.

When I was a kid, growing up on a council estate, I was offered a 100% scholarship to a well known private girls school in the London borough in which I lived. My parents refused this (they didn't put me in for an exam, the school was 'alerted'to my potential by basically a busybody who was doing educational research at several schools in the borough). They wanted me to go to a catholic school. I'm really glad they did that, the school I went to was great. I really wish I still lived where I come from so that my DDs at least could go to that school. But I don't so they can't. :(

Talkingpeace2 actually I am a scientist who knows a lot of other scientists who are Christians, and have other religious beliefs.
I'm sorry about my false generalisation, of course most people in history had religious beliefs rather than we're Christians. The comment came because I have been reading some history which reminded me that lots of people who would be claimed by atheists actually had religious beliefs.

moscow I am sorry that your experience has been that people have left the catholic system at 10 to move to more successful schools, perhaps some mumsnetters who have done this will come on.

We did the opposite, DC went to catholic primary school, then we left an area with a more successful non-faith secondary and moved so that DC could attend a catholic secondary. It is a very good school academically, but less so than the community school they would have attended automatically.

Also, can I point out that whilst you say you respect others beliefs, you then continue in a quite derogatory tone in saying "if that's what turns them on", and " get on their knees for something they can't see, hear, smell, taste or touch. I don't need it myself."

Neither comment is respectful of others beliefs, and it is partly because of this type of hostility that I wanted my children to attend a faith school where their own faith can develop in a supportive environment.

I think some people like their children to attend a school which has a christian ethos.

the atheists and humanists don't need separate schools as the non religious schools are secular and don't include christian worship.

alot of schools would have grown up out of our christian tradition.