Public schools gurus - Eton?

[carltonscroop]

This is more a fond dream than an actual plan. Yes, I've done some reading up, but wanted to ask any parents with recent(ish) first hand knowledge.

What's it really like? What sort of boy does it suit? Is it really worth the additional expense. (not the fees themselves IYSWIM but being at the high end - and on the same theme, are many things billed as extras) How hard is the scholarship exam? Has anything in particular surprised/pleased/disappointed you/your son/s?

My DS is a recent OE (now at Durham University). I'll just say that he was happy there. He was busy, achieved a lot and made loads of (so far) lasting friendships.
On a couple of points in this thread:
Uniform. My DS would have preferred no uniform but seemed to take the view that if a uniform is compulsory then it might as well be distinctive and wind outsiders up (Eton is full of teenage boys with concomitant attitudes!).
Size of the school. I was concerned about this before my DS went there. I now think that small houses (50 boys) compensate and that its sheer size allows Eton to offer more activities than some smaller schools could reasonably sustain.

?Why did pete bring grammar school performance into it in the first place Colleger??

Yello, you seem to have forgotten how all this hullabaloo about league table performances between grammar/independent schools first originated. OP comes in to ask some specific questions about Eton saying she had already done some background reading etc. Others, including myself, tried positively to help and you?re the first to say,

?all I would say is that it's not the most academic? which of course, you?re entitled to your opinion though not very helpful because that?s not one of the questions OP asked.

This quickly developed into a suggestion that the thread might be a troll and you have to say this:

? . . what's quite amusing is that some of the more long winded posters have fallen for it.?

So, it?s clear to me what you?re all about. You?re just being negative, trying to hijack and sabotage the thread and eventually kill it off insulting some ?long winded posters? along the way.

My civilised response was to produce a respectable League Table which has since been overwhelmingly agreed that Eton is as academic as they come, and yes, elbowing 99% of the grammar schools to reach where it did. That?s my opinion and the Financial Times? opinion, anything wrong with that?

?If you don't want people to pick you up on inconsistencies, don't be inconsistent. Earlier in the thread you were decrying Oxford and Cambridge, and saying that you couldn't persuade your DCs to apply there . . .?

Wrong! This is not the first time you?re putting words in my mouth (or text in my writing as the case may be). This is what I wrote:

?. . those who are still living in the 18th and 19th century and think that Oxbridge is the be all and end all for education, well good luck to them.?

Is this ?decrying? Oxbridge? Then you must really believe that Oxbridge IS the be all and the end all for education. I thought UCL is placed even higher than Oxford in the QS World League Table. And how could I have decried Oxbridge when I specifically said I absolutely love Oxford and have lived there for 3 years (no mention of Cambridge here) and couldn?t persuade DC to apply there?

?Tbh I'd be thrilled if DS1 got into KCL for medicine next year, why not leave it at that??

Don?t remember I said here DS is going to KCL for medicine, all I remember saying is he?s going to a world-class medical school which is what KCL, together with others, is of course, with their teaching hospitals etc. He is very happy what he?s got and if he?s happy, then I am happy. But really, I have no doubt (honestly) your DS1 will get his medical school of choice seeing that he is even more brilliant than his sisters (no pun intended) and I sincerely wish him the very best of luck (which is what is required too besides grades).

Any way to compare applications to the Ivy League from grammar schools vs public schools, including Eton?

Ask the schools for their figures. Though realistically, top independent schools are set up to support those that want overseas universities in a way that grammars or smaller independents cannot be due to differences in resourcing and the fact that the backgrounds of students at the top schools are very international and therefore they are often less UK-centric. also, up until now and the introduction of higher Uk fees, most families have needed far deeper pockets to send children to US universities than UK and so grammars will have many fewer trying.

Oh give it a break pete/ math.

1. When I said Eton was not the most academic, it was clearly in the context of the public schools, grammars aren't relevant here at all. So, Winchester and Westminster obviously. Your post spoke of grammars in an inappropriately patronising and superior way which ignores all sorts of critical factors, funding and class sizes being the first, which means that the 'playing field' isn't level. Hard to ignore the discussion you had just disappeared from on another thread where I had observed that straight A*'s were relatively common at my own kids grammar and you told another poster who queried that: 'If you believe that, you'll believe anything'. In other words that I lied (why would anyone bother?). It was clearly pique and crossing threads and aimed at me. Not unreasonably, I responded.

1. I'm extremely happy with where my eldest kids are at university and have little interest in tables. In fact I couldn't care less which department of which uni is 'rated best'. Anyone trying to belittle Oxford or Cambridge is almost invariably someone who has failed to get in themselves or the parent of a child who has failed to get in to one or the other. They're fabulous universitites, not suited to all, with incredibly supportive tutors and they serve at least one good social purpose in showing those who go there these days that there are so many people as least as clever as them, from all sorts of backgrounds, that it's an advisable life skill to leave off being cocky,

if you arrive from a school or home background which has made you that way.

1. I'd have thought that the vast majority of grammar school pupils come from a financial background where going to an Ivy League university was an impossible dream. Even with a scholarship, my understanding is that they're out of reach except to the very well off (same sort of cost as here with a scholarship, but with no possibility of loans). I find the suggestion of a comparison both offensive and odd.

Cross-posted.

The international make up of Eton, for example, is evidenced in this recent letter to "The Times" in reponse to comments about the large numbers of Etonians in the current cabinet, which made me smile:

*We could be seeing a very different Cabinet in the 2040s, if Eton?s Sixth Form Awards are anything to go by

Sir, It is announced in School Notices (Register, Mar 14) that Eton?s Sixth Form Awards go to Messrs Rishi Agrawal, Oliver Feng, Xiao Lin, Tanveer Sondh, Jacob Weir and Denis Zaboronsky. This could alter the complexion of the 2040s Cabinet*

It also supports Colleger's comment (maybe on a different thread) about the work ethic and intelligence of the children sent to the UK for their schooling from abroad and may go some way to explaining why grammars which are state funded and made up of UK-based residents only, might appear to do less well in the league tables.

Sorry - bolding didn't work. this is the text of the letter.

We could be seeing a very different Cabinet in the 2040s, if Eton?s Sixth Form Awards are anything to go by

Sir, It is announced in School Notices (Register, Mar 14) that Eton?s Sixth Form Awards go to Messrs Rishi Agrawal, Oliver Feng, Xiao Lin, Tanveer Sondh, Jacob Weir and Denis Zaboronsky. This could alter the complexion of the 2040s Cabinet

Regina, many boarding grammar schools spend lots of tax payers money each year actively recruiting from countries like China for the sixth form. They go over and hold weeks about the school, assessing boys etc. So they are doing the same at sixth form and unsurprisingly these children all end up at Oxbridge. It's scandalous on two fronts:

Tax payers money used to recruit
Places taken away from British citizens to be given to non-EU students and payed by the tax payer.

Eton has one of the lowest levels of International students.

I may be wrong here but i think there are very very few state boarding grammar schools. most of the schools called "grammar" are actually independent fee paying so i suspect there is not a huge amount of tax payers money wasted on derpriving British citizens of 6th form places.

There are 34 state boarding schools in England and Wales, the majority grammar schools and those which are not are semi-selective. It wouldn't matter if there was 1 or 100, the state shouldn't be funding "Jollies" to the East to recruit and pay for students to come to our country and boost a schools results at a tax-payers and British students expense.

I wonder if you would be saying the same if your child was at a sink school, having missed out on a grammar school place because of this admission policy.

There are only a small number of state boarding schools, and from my quick look at the list, only about a third of those are grammar schools (the rest comprehensives/community schools/sixth form centres/specialist technology schools etc as you'd expect): www.sbsa.org.uk/

In any case, although some have substantial boarding numbers as a proportion of the whole, the majority of these schools only have a small number of boarding places, often only in the sixth form (e.g. Colchester Grammar with just 30 boarding places for sixth form boys).

Colleger, I think you must be wrong about the recruitment from China, as the state boarding school website specifically addresses residence requirements for entry: "Admission to State Boarding Schools in the UK is limited to children who are nationals of the UK and are eligible to hold a full UK passport, or those who are nationals of other European Union countries or those who have the right of residence in the UK. Please note that the holding of a BN(O) passport does not make the child eligible for a State Boarding School in the UK."

So a child from the EU could be admitted or ones with the right of residence for other reasons (e.g. British parents living abroad) but your suggestion that they recruit heavily from, e.g., China cannot be the case. You are right of course though that some independent schools do take quite a few students from many foreign countries (including the far east) into the sixth form.

I had a chance to talk to one of the housemasters in WinCol, asking about entrance to the US uni.

Did not mention any College level support. Anyone who's interested, takes their own free time preparing SAT.

Eton has one of the lowest levels of International students.

I believe the evident presence of strong international students enhances the experience for all at British fee paying schools, as, I think do the schools. Peteneras is right when she points out the huge international reputation of Eton and similar schools and the fact that many people from all over the world send their children to them. The world our children will live and work in is highly globally mobile and there is not going to be much benefit in being Little Englanders.

I wasn't aware of the recruiting system for state boarding that you mention Colleger. It seems really unfair if true, but not one I have come across in the 5 countries I have been living in over the past years. I have not been aware of a visit by the head or a rep of a state boarding school. I have had acquaintances use state boarding schools from overseas, but the children have all had at least one British parent. It would be true that they have not been British taxpayers while living overseas (except possibly tax on Uk-earned income that I wouldn't be aware of) but I think they have all owned Uk property which I suppose I thought might be a criteria but I have no idea why I should think that.

Do you think these recruits might be expat children with UK passports, possibly of different ethnicity, but UK citizens with UK passports? If not it seems a real anomaly.

I'm amazed at the suggestion too. What's your source Colleger? I really hope it's not true.

The Mead, the schools I know best in the UK give some support and some SAT prep lessons and the schools I know best overseas gave help though not much in the way of lesson, so I just assumed WinCol and the like gave some too. It isn't a completely straightforward process and demands some effort from students on top of school work so I'm guessing they must have some info for those who want it, even if it's just telling them how to register at centres, the different requirements of the personal statement equivalent and closing dates for entry, etc?

Eton support SAT tests and the tests can also be sat at the school too.

I first noticed the boarding grammars recruiting overseas a couple of years ago when I was looking into them. It even stated on the school calendar that the Head would be away in China on a pupil recruitment drive. It doesn't really matter if one parent does have a British passport. These schools do not need to spend money going overseas. It also mentioned on a school website that the majority of the sixth formers coming to board ended up at Oxbridge - can the school not do a good enough job with the boys it has? The list of Oxbridge surnames (or girls who's entered the sixth form) were mainly all Chinese but one parent was probably British Chinese who had moved back to Hong Kong.

Are you generalising from the particular maybe? There are many different types of grammar, the ones at the bottom of the table unrecognisable from the ones at the top. If the one you're referring to is at or near the top (and I'm assuming it is) then I can't imagine that the Headteacher's purpose has anyhting to do with league tables at all. I'd assume it was much more about introducing different culture to the school for the benefit of all. Perhaps the school in question is partnered with the school in China and seeks to strengthen the links, given that China is so key. On the whole the Headteachers of the top schools, state as well as independent, are a very impressive bunch and tend not to have a narrow world view. Really, there must be some cultural and educational advantage, it won't be a thinly disguised perk for the Head - he'd be sacked. Interesting though, I'd like to know more.

arionater is right that state schools only take those with British passports or right of residence, though of course there are plenty of those in China/Hong Kong. They have no need to go to China to recruit, because the kind of families who would apply are well aware of the opportunity to do so.

As pointed out above, at Colchester Grammar (one of the schools that "beat" Eton in the FT rankings) boarders make up less than 10% (30 out of 310) of the entire sixth form. Many (though not all) of these are from the Far East, however the school also takes plenty of day students from the local, very ordinary, comprehensives and private schools into the sixth form.

Looking at a photo of the 41 CRGS students with Oxbridge offers this year, only 4 appear to have "Chinese" faces (no idea whether they are actually from China or local children).

I thought it was Colleger, earlier in the thread, who stated that the fact that Eton was a good school did not mean others were not also good (or words to that effect), perhaps I was wrong. Why attempt to belittle the achievements of grammars with these claims about foreign students? Are you also going to start suggesting the grammars' results are a fluke, as peteneras did? There is an inexplicable insecurity among the Eton parents on this thread. I was struck by the violence of peteneras' language earlier on, who talked of the "obliteration" and "wipeout" of the state grammars, (in the case of CRGS, on the basis of a 1 point difference over 5 years on the FT ranking - her preferred measure). Eton is an amazing school, but why not accept that a state school anywhere near Eton in the rankings is also doing amazingly well, especially given the vast disparity in school resources and backgrounds of students?

When have I ever mentioned league tables or belittled grammar schools. It is you minikin who has mentioned league tables, which happen to hold no interest for me. In fact, my gripe was about tax payers money being used to recruit pupils from abroad and it does happen. I do not make claims unless I know they are factual!

It doesn't really matter if one parent does have a British passport.

If the state are paying then it does matter a little since most of us are happy that people with British nationality or, in some cases, residency only, attend tax-payer funded schools. They are likely to have paid tax at some time themselves.

In economic terms these pupils are likely to benefit the country in future if they remain here. Even if they return to live and work on a different continent the links with and knowledge they have of this very small country might be of economic benefit to the UK. We need intellectual capital here and we need good links with the people from emerging economies.

I agree about state schools recruitment drives overseas though. But I have a fair bit of experience of educational circles in several booming expat locations and I've not yet come across a state-funded one, though I accept that you have evidence that this has happened.

Colleger, you give the impression that you are belittling grammar school when you claim (09:16:22 post) that boarding grammar schools recruit in China in order to boost their results, implying that without these students they would not achieve the results that they do.

In your previous post you claim that "many" grammar schools do this and that "these children all end up at Oxbridge".

You have not given any evidence for this despite stating that your claims are" factual". On the other hand, I have given you a specific example which contradicts your claim.

I do agree, however, that league tables are of limited value and I apologise for bringing the views of peteneras into a comment on your post. It's just that your suggestion that grammar schools results are manipulated by "overseas recruitment drives" reminded me about the rather desperate attempts earlier by peteneras to suggest that Eton would actually top the league tables if only Westminster didn't take girls/Winchester was bigger/ grammar schools didn't have "fluke" results, etc. etc.

I've heard tell that Eton's learning support department is second to none, from those in the know how would a very bright but very dyslexic boy fare at Eton? Child in question is very articulate, exceptional general knowledge, politically aware, would definitely benefitfrom debating etc But as I say very dyslexic. Does Eton take boys like that?