Please can someone explain to me how secondary school works?

[schroeder]

I've just realised I have no idea, I am stuck in the 80's- children pick options at 14 take GCSEs at 16 then can leave or go to college/sixth form for A levels.

I sort of know this is not the case anymore, apparently there are things called A/S levels and children have to stay on until they are 18 is this right?

What about options? When does this happen? What is a Baccalaureate?

I know I'm stupid, but please take pity on me

Not that much has changed. Options still at 14 (year 9). GCSEs at 16. Other GCSE 'equivalents' like BTEC also sat at 16. The only difference to 1980s is that a lot of them are modular, so can be sitting assessed pieces of work and interim exams throughout 14-16.

The English Bacc is a new target set by Michael Gove. If a pupil has GCSEs at grades A* to C in all of these subjects: maths, English, Science, MFL (modern foreign language) and either history or geography they qualify, but there is no piece paper for them; it's a measure for the school to show they offer a quality, rounded education.

AS levels are sat at end of lower sixth; A2 (A levels) sat at end of upper sixth at 18.

There is also the International Baccalaureate which is an alternative to A Levels and more difficult I believe.

Don't think school leaving age has been increased yet.

Thank you, I thought I'd read that options were chosen earlier now

School leaving age will be 18 in 2013 I think, so ds (12) will have to stay on.

In some schools options are chosen in year 8 I think but this doesn't happen everywhere.

Our normal comprehensive still choose in year 9. Major differences to us (in the 80's) are:

Modular exams - means you have to work continually for two years but gives chances of resits.

Some GCSE marks come from classroom work but it is controlled now in school, so it is the students real work.

Vocational choices within the options - (but these are diminishing in student numbers as the eng bacc encourages more to take traditional subjects again)

We had CSE and O level and could double enter. Now there is Foundation and Higher, but because the exam timing is the same (and I think some questions overlap papers) you can only sit one. Having said that, maybe the modular with resit options, give a similar situation overall.

Non selective schools have a cross section of children now including SEN. Many of these children in my school in the 80's would have been taken to a separate centre where C1 (children basically compromised due to medical reasons) and C2 (children compromised due to behavioural problems) used to be taught.

'The English Bacc is a new target set by Michael Gove. If a pupil has GCSEs at grades A* to C in all of these subjects: maths, English, Science, MFL (modern foreign language) and either history or geography they qualify, but there is no piece paper for them; it's a measure for the school to show they offer a quality, rounded education.'

Some universities have already said that they will prefer students to have C or above in the E.Bacc subjects. Whilst it is mainly a measure of the school at the moment, expect it to become more important for the students themselves as they get to college / uni applications.

So far as I can make out (took O and A levels, not GCSEs), pupils take various exams/controlled assessments throughout the second year that all go towards the final mark. Also, some subjects seem to have ISAs? that will also go towards the mark. For example, my DS was not doing very well in science (double award), but go a very good mark in his ISA and so his mark has been bumped up to a B, which to me in pretty unbelievable.

I don't understand exactly how all the exams/curriculum work, but do know that you have to give the answers that they want from the textbooks. Initiative is not good.

Initiative never was much required for our O levels either! Our Geography was two double periods a week. In the first we wrote down from the board constantly, all lesson. On the second lesson of the week the teacher fired questions at us on that work (and work we had done previously). Not one of us got less than a B Grade. It was all total recall. We were so brainwashed I can even repeat some of the stuff now and I am in my 40's.

our school is trialling a MFL GCSE in Y8-9 with the option to do a second language in Y10-11, or start an AS then. Presumably they can do the A2 in Y12, freeing up that slot in Y13 for another AS.

We also have accelerated sets for Maths GCSE who do that in Y9-10, then another Maths qualification (would have been Additional Maths back in the olden days) in Y11.

Secondary school pupils still choose options in Year 9 but many pupils will now be told to do the EBacc (5 GCSE subjects: English, Maths, Science, a foreign language, History or Geography). They will then be able to choose remaining subjects from non EBacc subjects. Pupils can also take vocational courses like BTec but these are falling out of favour because Gove wants GCSE.

The difference between secondary education now than in the 80s is the quality of the examinations. In 1987 when GCSE was introduced a GCSE C was supposed to be the equivalent of a GCE Ordinary Level/CSE Grade 1 pass. The average pupil was expected to get a GCSE Grade E. Now, because of constant demands by governments to increase the number of pupils getting GCSE C, the standard of GCSE C has actually fallen. Modular exams and coursework have made the exams easier to pass and they are not as difficult. Consequently, GCSE C is now the level of a GCSE E in the late 1980s/early 1990s. Andy Burnham, shadow secretary of state for education, has said he wants all school leavers to achieve 5 GCSE Grade C or above. If that ever happens, then GCSE Grade C will be nothing more than a very basic school leaving certificate which does no-one any favours, least of all the pupils.

Jeeesssss, my 1981 O level grades A,B,B,B,C,C, make me an A* student! And they're the right subjects to qualify me for an ebacc as well :)

That sounds about right. I attended a grammar that turned comprehensive, but we stayed in mainly O'level streams.
It was considered well above average to get 5 C's or above (1977)

I find it quite difficult now telling DD1 (yr9) that I did only get 5 A to C's.
Ended up with A,B,C,C,C,D,E,G.
And would NOT have got the Ebac as the D and E were French and History, and the only science was Physics which was the G (CSE 5).

The EBacc is actually English, Maths, one MFL or Latin, History/Geography and two GCSEs in Science. One Science GCSE isn't enough. Not that will be an issue for most pupils as it is the norm for brighter ones (the ones expected to get the EBacc) to take either double or triple science to GCSE.

Abuelita can you link me to the studies that back up those claims?

I can see that it seems wrong when such a large % of students achieve A grades, but every summer the same debate starts as to whether exams are easier or not.

I probably have not been paying enough attention, but I thought the jury was still out on this question, so to speak?

It would go to explain why A and A* is advised before moving onto Maths A level. Although I didn't do it, I was actually expected too and got a B. Having said that, the GCSE syllabus doesn't seem to cover anything different than we covered....does it? Or is it just being modular and resittable makes it easier?

I have to say, we had to do everything in exams at the end, and that was dire for those who were not good at exams or had illness from pollens.

Oh, I forgot I also had a U - that was English Lit. My A was English Language! Before you ask, yes, I did read the books and I did answer all the questions (not very well, obviously, and I did have hayfever!) . U's were the best fail grade because they didn't get shown on the certificate.

BBC Radio 4 programme More or Less looked at A levels in 2009 and concluded there had been grade inflation of up to two grades.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/more_or_less/8207622.stm

There's a link to the programme on Listen Again - you'll need to fast forward about twenty minutes.

FullFact org, however, says the jury's still out:

fullfact.org/factchecks/grade_inflation_rising_results_falling_standards-1538

My opinion would back up Radio 4. I'm an ex teacher and I do not believe that GCSE Grade C is the equivalent of GCE O level pass. When GCSE was first offered, a Grade A was supposed to be a rarity achievable only by outstanding pupils. When too many pupils began to get Grade A the last Government had to introduce A. My opinion, and this is only my hunch, is that the only GCSE grades which now equal an old Ordinary Level pass are Grades A and A. Anyone who achieved a Grade A in the old O level or GCSE in 1987 would probably be working at at least A/S level today.

Have just seen the words International Baccalaureate information meeting for prospective 6th formers on our school website .My DC only in Y7 but curious as to what this is? My other DC in Y9 and just done options where History or Geography were compulsory because of English Baccalaureate (MFL already compulsory core) is this International Baccalaureate a higher version ???

busymummy3 I think the idea is if pupils get GCSEs in a good spread of subjects, then it's the equivalent of the baccalaureate.

Hmm I'm not sure about the GCSEs being easier or not I took mine in the guinea pig year (1988), so I'm sure they've changed quite a lot since then.

It's funny I went for an interview a while back and was asked if I had O levels or GCSEs because apparently if I had O levels, I would be sent on a course to update my skills.

busymummy3 - The International Bacc is a higher qualification broadly equivalent to A level. The IB is generally considered more desirable than traditional A levels by universities, as it has a greater breadth of subjects and is seen as more challenging. The students at my school who are looking at attending Oxbridge or other Russell group universities tend to opt for it.

Busymummy3 I think that if an interviewer thought someone needed updating just because they had O levels that would have more to do with his/her perceptions about age rather than their opinions about the academic standard of O levels. I think the interviewer was showing remarkable ignorance and is guilty of ageism.

If you took GCSEs in 1988 you would certainly notice a difference. Coursework had always been an element of Certificate of Secondary Education (CSE) but not O level, so GCSE introduced a coursework element. 1988 was BC (Before Computers) so all coursework was handwritten except in rare instances when it was typewritten on an old-fashioned typewriter (and GCSE typing, of course, had to be all typed). It was easier to spot cheating when papers were handwritten. Also there was no cutting and pasting from the internet.

Many GCSEs now are modular, which means the pupil takes the exam in small modules. S/he can retake these as much as is needed to raise the pupil's mark. Also vocational examinations, like Btec, have been given GCSE C equivalence, rather than letting them stand on their own. This has boosted the number of GCSE Cs and above.

Abuelita I have not said anything about o levels???? I was asking what an International Baccalaureate was which has now been answered by other posters. Thanks for your comments anyway!

I think that was directed to the OP

busymummy3 Sorry! I've only just started posting and thought the name in bold was the person to whom I was speaking. The remark was addressed to schroeder (I hope!).

not all GCSEs require course work - ds1's school do mostly IGCSEs which have no modules or course work and the grade depends entirely on the exams at the end of the course (just to throw another complication into the mix!)